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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:04 pm 
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Whilst some of the stats KK quotes are very pertinent, (although I would always prefer several sources as I see different stats about the same things all of the time), I agree with KBS in saying what is the answer? If someone can tell me I can go and tell my bosses and I can become the great hero (by the way, saying throw more money at it isn't allowed).

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:09 am 
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I have this picture in my mind of National Health Facilities being used for Private practice and doing an operation for which they charge about 50% more than what you would pay in the public sector.

With rich people queue jumping because they will pay to do so, now I have massive problems with that.

For me the NHS has to be free to all citizens with the required numbers of doctors and nurses in the required numbers of hospitals.

And you get your operation in the correct time possible with less than a month waiting lists.

I hear this claptrap about the private sector being given multi million pound contracts, and I can't get my head around why?

For me that will create a more expensive system with the private sector cherry picking what they desire, what they see as profitable.

Cash made out of peoples illness, not right at all.

I dont think the general public quite grasp the kind of decisions being made at the moment.

Maybe when their local doctor closes a light may be switched on inside them.
Or when they call for an ambulance and the telephone operator asks which credit card they wish to pay with.

The NHS budget is divided between generalists - known as primary care (doctors, dentists, etc), and specialists - known as secondary care (consultants, cardiologists, psychologists, etc). According to the Nuffield Trust over two-thirds of the budget is spent on secondary care - around £70bn of the total £102bn NHS budget.
In 2012-13 around 9 per cent of that £70bn was spent in the private sector. A further 1 per cent was spent in the voluntary sector.

Some areas of care are seeing a marked shift from NHS to private provision.

The latest Nuffield Trust research finds that one pound in every five spent by commissioners on community health services in 2012-13 (eg physiotherapy or treatment at home) was spent on care provided by independent sector providers - an increase of 34 per cent in one year alone. Nearly one third of the £9.75bn the NHS spends on community health services is now with non-NHS providers, including the voluntary sector.

Worried, nope alarm bells.

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:29 am 
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he tide is turning against the scam that is privatisation.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... CMP=twt_gu

Support the strikers, its your front line services.

You want enough money for your Hospitals and Schools dont sit back and watch the idle rich take them away.

Fight back, remember this if the bankers had another crisis, they would be looked after again, how many billions do you require, no problem.

Get smart people, dont stand for the three card trick.

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:42 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
he tide is turning against the scam that is privatisation.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... CMP=twt_gu

Support the strikers, its your front line services.

You want enough money for your Hospitals and Schools dont sit back and watch the idle rich take them away.

Fight back, remember this if the bankers had another crisis, they would be looked after again, how many billions do you require, no problem.

Get smart people, dont stand for the three card trick.


good article KK, I have never been able to see how privatisation was sold to the general public, its a bloody scam!

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:20 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
he tide is turning against the scam that is privatisation.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... CMP=twt_gu

Support the strikers, its your front line services.

You want enough money for your Hospitals and Schools dont sit back and watch the idle rich take them away.

Fight back, remember this if the bankers had another crisis, they would be looked after again, how many billions do you require, no problem.

Get smart people, dont stand for the three card trick.
p

Watching a prog on James Martin who is trying to change the way food is served in hospitals and if you could see the waste you'd be horrified.Some don't even give the kitchens numbers to cater for they have to guess.Waste at some places reached 40% for gods sake.
There were no set recipe instructions so different cooks prepared foods in different ways, so nutrient levels were random and as he said what about people like diabetics, it was laughable.
The sourcing of food was equally laughable, to the extent where in wales lamb wasn't even on the menu!!!It was said to be too expensive and not within budget.They were sourcing New Zealand lamb :mrgreen: When it was finally sourced it was within budget.Welsh lamb too.
The waste and complete chaos in just hospital kitchens kk.One "professional" saw this straight away, imagine what other independent professionals would find elsewhere.
This wasn't just about money but providing edible good quality healthy food to people who the only thing they have to look forward to in the day is their meals.
Sometimes kk there are simpler ways to make the nhs more efficient and cost effective but that would mean letting people in to take a look. :oops:

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Last edited by kenbarlowsslippers on Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:57 pm 
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I welcome as should everyone outside views but never to the detriment of the NHS being free at the point of entry for everyone.

I just dont trust this capitalist culture to represent the people as much as the people they represent the shareholders who put money making before health care.

The NHS was working well up until this government started trying to sell of the parts they saw as highly profitable.
I fight against that with a vengeance.

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:36 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
I welcome as should everyone outside views but never to the detriment of the NHS being free at the point of entry for everyone.

I just dont trust this capitalist culture to represent the people as much as the people they represent the shareholders who put money making before health care.

The NHS was working well up until this government started trying to sell of the parts they saw as highly profitable.
I fight against that with a vengeance.


Labours pfi initiative kk and their role in privatisation?Keep it simple kk a few ideas maybe but when you start only blaming them damn toffs the tories people tend to switch off.Your agenda is party bashing instead of problem solving, take a look them new labour toffs are equally as bad :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:07 pm 
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Lets examine the food available within hospitals and the cost. This is how i imagine it

Just guesswork.

Hospital employs cooks, buys produce,
Makes meals onsite, takes them to patients,

Washes dishes, bins leftovers.

how much per head per day, not sure £15.


Could outside caterers do it cheaper and better.

How, I dont know? Who awards the contracts?

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:50 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
Lets examine the food available within hospitals and the cost. This is how i imagine it

Just guesswork.

Hospital employs cooks, buys produce,
Makes meals onsite, takes them to patients,

Washes dishes, bins leftovers.

how much per head per day, not sure £15.


Could outside caterers do it cheaper and better.

How, I dont know? Who awards the contracts?


Many NHS Trusts do award contracts to external caterers through a tender process. Usually those who tender the lowest price win the contract. They probably cut corners to achieve that price. What you are actually saying though is give the contract to the private "profit makers" - something you abhor elsewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:16 am 
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No, What I was asking there was how could an outside caterer provide a cheaper product of the same quality for less of a price?
Answers to that question please those who love this private market.

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:21 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
No, What I was asking there was how could an outside caterer provide a cheaper product of the same quality for less of a price?
Answers to that question please those who love this private market.


Can't see how they could, unless it was low quality crap, full of preservatives and additives.

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:10 am 
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Embers has sort of answered it for me. I think there is a tendency to reduce quality and sometimes quantity, but also the terms and conditions including pay for their staff are usually crap in comparison to NHS rates - This is a key reason and something else that I would expect KK to be railing at.

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:17 am 
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Left back wrote:
Embers has sort of answered it for me. I think there is a tendency to reduce quality and sometimes quantity, but also the terms and conditions including pay for their staff are usually crap in comparison to NHS rates - This is a key reason and something else that I would expect KK to be railing at.


So do you accept the quality of food at the required cost within hospitals is usually better if done in house rather than by private companies.
If so why should outside caterers get contracts?

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:28 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
Left back wrote:
Embers has sort of answered it for me. I think there is a tendency to reduce quality and sometimes quantity, but also the terms and conditions including pay for their staff are usually crap in comparison to NHS rates - This is a key reason and something else that I would expect KK to be railing at.


So do you accept the quality of food at the required cost within hospitals is usually better if done in house rather than by private companies.
If so why should outside caterers get contracts?


£

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:34 am 
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Left back wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
Left back wrote:
Embers has sort of answered it for me. I think there is a tendency to reduce quality and sometimes quantity, but also the terms and conditions including pay for their staff are usually crap in comparison to NHS rates - This is a key reason and something else that I would expect KK to be railing at.


So do you accept the quality of food at the required cost within hospitals is usually better if done in house rather than by private companies.
If so why should outside caterers get contracts?


£


Sorry to keep pressing you but you keep evading the key point.
Why can't it be done in house cheaper for the same standard?

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:45 am 
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[quote="knocker knowles"]
If you are asking me to compare with externals then I have already given the answers. It is not the same standard and they pay less. If you are asking why internally, efficiency can't be improved then largely that is down to bureaucracy - too many checks and hoops to go through, too many layers of authority. No evasion here just dumbness as I don't see what other point you are making.

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:58 am 
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Left back wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
If you are asking me to compare with externals then I have already given the answers. It is not the same standard and they pay less. If you are asking why internally, efficiency can't be improved then largely that is down to bureaucracy - too many checks and hoops to go through, too many layers of authority. No evasion here just dumbness as I don't see what other point you are making.


See this answer about bureaucracy to me reeks of people not standing up and accepting responsibility to sort the problems out and just find it easy to pass the book.


OK Lets try and break it down in an easier manner, what kind of price per person per day are we looking at.

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:24 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
Left back wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
If you are asking me to compare with externals then I have already given the answers. It is not the same standard and they pay less. If you are asking why internally, efficiency can't be improved then largely that is down to bureaucracy - too many checks and hoops to go through, too many layers of authority. No evasion here just dumbness as I don't see what other point you are making.


See this answer about bureaucracy to me reeks of people not standing up and accepting responsibility to sort the problems out and just find it easy to pass the book.


OK Lets try and break it down in an easier manner, what kind of price per person per day are we looking at.


I don't have the information in front of me for that as it is not my department. In terms of blaming the bureaucracy, I guess you have to experience it to understand what is meant. In terms of catering, NHS payscales are dictated nationally and other agencies can do it on minimum wage. However good a manager is this makes it difficult to compete for pricing.

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:40 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
Left back wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
If you are asking me to compare with externals then I have already given the answers. It is not the same standard and they pay less. If you are asking why internally, efficiency can't be improved then largely that is down to bureaucracy - too many checks and hoops to go through, too many layers of authority. No evasion here just dumbness as I don't see what other point you are making.


See this answer about bureaucracy to me reeks of people not standing up and accepting responsibility to sort the problems out and just find it easy to pass the book.


OK Lets try and break it down in an easier manner, what kind of price per person per day are we looking at.


Kk watch the program on catch up it will open your eyes and give you many of the answers to your questions.Operation hospital food it is called.

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:34 am 
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If you are asking me to compare with externals then I have already given the answers. It is not the same standard and they pay less. If you are asking why internally, efficiency can't be improved then largely that is down to bureaucracy - too many checks and hoops to go through, too many layers of authority. No evasion here just dumbness as I don't see what other point you are making.[/quote][/quote]

See this answer about bureaucracy to me reeks of people not standing up and accepting responsibility to sort the problems out and just find it easy to pass the book.


OK Lets try and break it down in an easier manner, what kind of price per person per day are we looking at.[/quote]

I don't have the information in front of me for that as it is not my department. In terms of blaming the bureaucracy, I guess you have to experience it to understand what is meant. In terms of catering, NHS payscales are dictated nationally and other agencies can do it on minimum wage. However good a manager is this makes it difficult to compete for pricing.[/quote]


When you say outside caterers can do it on minimum wage, is this just a way to frighten NHS staff into accepting poor pay deals.
Effectively employing scab labour through devious means.

Wouldn't these agencies have other major costs making them quite expensive.
Additional management costs, shareholder profits, cost of cookery equipment, transportation and so on.

Has the role of the union been undermined so much that scab labour is seen as acceptable in todays market place?

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:00 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
If you are asking me to compare with externals then I have already given the answers. It is not the same standard and they pay less. If you are asking why internally, efficiency can't be improved then largely that is down to bureaucracy - too many checks and hoops to go through, too many layers of authority. No evasion here just dumbness as I don't see what other point you are making.
[/quote]

See this answer about bureaucracy to me reeks of people not standing up and accepting responsibility to sort the problems out and just find it easy to pass the book.


OK Lets try and break it down in an easier manner, what kind of price per person per day are we looking at.[/quote]

I don't have the information in front of me for that as it is not my department. In terms of blaming the bureaucracy, I guess you have to experience it to understand what is meant. In terms of catering, NHS payscales are dictated nationally and other agencies can do it on minimum wage. However good a manager is this makes it difficult to compete for pricing.[/quote]


When you say outside caterers can do it on minimum wage, is this just a way to frighten NHS staff into accepting poor pay deals.
Effectively employing scab labour through devious means.

Wouldn't these agencies have other major costs making them quite expensive.
Additional management costs, shareholder profits, cost of cookery equipment, transportation and so on.

Has the role of the union been undermined so much that scab labour is seen as acceptable in todays market place?[/quote]

With the exception of shareholder profits why would any of these things cost more to an external company? The shareholders, in order to obtain their profits will expect a driving down of costs and this is why other things will be done comparatively on the cheap (shortcuts, less quality checks etc). The minimum wage argument may well be a way of trying to drive down NHS pay but it is a reality and therefore a valid argument. If I have to pay you £20 to wash my car and I only pay my son £10 to wash it than I can get it washed cheaper by my son. The chances are that you are a more experienced and skilled car washer at that price and the quality of the wash may not be equal but it is no use saying to me why can't I have it done to the standard you provide for £10 and blaming my management skills for not being able to do so if you won't do it for £10.

Basically I'm a bit fed up of this argument now so I will say that, as a manager in the NHS, I am not very good like all other NHS managers and we don't work very hard and we don't care much about what we do and we pass our books around all of the time blaming bureaucracy and anything else but ourselves for the failings of the NHS. I'm sorry that even for a little while I thought differently, I don't know what came over me.

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:50 pm 
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Lb I've only watched a couple of progs so I'm no expert(again)but the people I've seen do care it's just they have been doing something a certain way for so long it becomes the norm.It's taken an outsider and to be fair the welsh health minister who wants change to see and implement something different.I believe many hospitals were not interested in letting anyone in to take a look which makes you wonder too.
Now trying to source outside caterers with all the red tape and rules that must be abided too, like being green, transport, packaging, price etc you end up like the supermarkets with products with horse meat in.They want the contract they cut corners, it does happen.Who's to blame, tough one that.
Just hospital catering is a massive massive subject which shows how hard sorting the nhs will be but if letting in an outside pro can do what I have seen then it is a start.

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:11 pm 
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kenbarlowsslippers wrote:
Lb I've only watched a couple of progs so I'm no expert(again)but the people I've seen do care it's just they have been doing something a certain way for so long it becomes the norm.It's taken an outsider and to be fair the welsh health minister who wants change to see and implement something different.I believe many hospitals were not interested in letting anyone in to take a look which makes you wonder too.
Now trying to source outside caterers with all the red tape and rules that must be abided too, like being green, transport, packaging, price etc you end up like the supermarkets with products with horse meat in.They want the contract they cut corners, it does happen.Who's to blame, tough one that.
Just hospital catering is a massive massive subject which shows how hard sorting the nhs will be but if letting in an outside pro can do what I have seen then it is a start.


I have no problem at all with any of that KBS. I was just getting fed up of KK's digs and attempt to start a simplistic approach as if he could solve it on here. There are many inefficiencies in the NHS and there is no doubt that people can improve things. What I see happen so often though is someone coming in with new ideas to sort things out and soon becoming cynical because of all of the difficulties they face or, worse, providing a quick fix with no long term foundation and buggering off before it falls apart. I have also seen many occasions when services have been contracted out on the grounds of efficiency (cheap) and the standards have dropped. I haven't actually watched the programme you are referring to but are the changes effective long term. We sometimes see someone proving they can live on the dole for a week - yes it's relatively easy but try to keep doing it long term when all the day to day problems come in to play.

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:56 pm 
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Left back wrote:
kenbarlowsslippers wrote:
Lb I've only watched a couple of progs so I'm no expert(again)but the people I've seen do care it's just they have been doing something a certain way for so long it becomes the norm.It's taken an outsider and to be fair the welsh health minister who wants change to see and implement something different.I believe many hospitals were not interested in letting anyone in to take a look which makes you wonder too.
Now trying to source outside caterers with all the red tape and rules that must be abided too, like being green, transport, packaging, price etc you end up like the supermarkets with products with horse meat in.They want the contract they cut corners, it does happen.Who's to blame, tough one that.
Just hospital catering is a massive massive subject which shows how hard sorting the nhs will be but if letting in an outside pro can do what I have seen then it is a start.


I have no problem at all with any of that KBS. I was just getting fed up of KK's digs and attempt to start a simplistic approach as if he could solve it on here. There are many inefficiencies in the NHS and there is no doubt that people can improve things. What I see happen so often though is someone coming in with new ideas to sort things out and soon becoming cynical because of all of the difficulties they face or, worse, providing a quick fix with no long term foundation and buggering off before it falls apart. I have also seen many occasions when services have been contracted out on the grounds of efficiency (cheap) and the standards have dropped. I haven't actually watched the programme you are referring to but are the changes effective long term. We sometimes see someone proving they can live on the dole for a week - yes it's relatively easy but try to keep doing it long term when all the day to day problems come in to play.


Tough one lb, you hope it is long term,seems like they are going for it in wales.A set system they will use throughout all hospitals sounds like a start.
Hospitals were cooking and didn't know how many for, that is basic and if something as simple as that is wrong then........that wasn't every hospital though so please don't think I'm saying they all are bad on that score.
The point was to improve the quality of food to the patient but he found much more, didn't lloyd bloody grossman try something similar a while back?So I am not holding my breath but just hopeful.

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:23 pm 
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I hope it is a long term success and all hospitals can learn from it.

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:34 am 
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14 July 1789. The French Revolution began as Parisians stormed the Bastille prison and released 7 prisoners.

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:21 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
14 July 1789. The French Revolution began as Parisians stormed the Bastille prison and released 7 prisoners.


Could the residents from another city have done it cheaper and better?

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:16 am 
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Left back wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
14 July 1789. The French Revolution began as Parisians stormed the Bastille prison and released 7 prisoners.


Could the residents from another city have done it cheaper and better?


:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:45 am 
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Left back wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
14 July 1789. The French Revolution began as Parisians stormed the Bastille prison and released 7 prisoners.


Could the residents from another city have done it cheaper and better?


And here's me intentionally backing off questioning the motives within the NHS.

I think the French are well in credit, it obviously worked out spectacularly well for them. Pity we didn't follow their example.


Unexpected. Michael Gove from education to Chief Whip.

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 Post subject: Re: Social conscience
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:23 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
Left back wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
14 July 1789. The French Revolution began as Parisians stormed the Bastille prison and released 7 prisoners.


Could the residents from another city have done it cheaper and better?


And here's me intentionally backing off questioning the motives within the NHS.

I think the French are well in credit, it obviously worked out spectacularly well for them. Pity we didn't follow their example.


Unexpected. Michael Gove from education to Chief Whip.


Around today you would have been on the conventions hit list don't you see the irony kk :lol:

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