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 Post subject: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:42 pm 
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Perhaps this should be under the Advice section, but I'm vexxed. Basically, I have to go on-call, out-of-hours, currently one-week-in-four (might be three in the New Year :x ). I've never signed up for this, i.e. it's not in my contract, and there is a poxy £16K pot, to be divided by the team, which, after deductions, leaves about £1.50 per hour, for the hours of 6pm til 8am. If we get called out, it's £20 per hour, or £40 on Bank Holidays.

Ths thing is, we're being told that we have to stay at home when on-call, partly because we're supporting a Police system, and data security is important. However, this has been pissing me off, as I don't believe that basically being under 'house arrest', 3 to 4 months a year is legal, so I got Googling, and found this: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/Documents/Advice%20factsheets/Employment/e-working-hours.pdf

Now the crux for me, is the following paragraph:

If your job requires you to be "on call" these hours count as time at work. Being on call generally means that you have to be at a place decided by your employer. This might mean you have to be at your workplace, stay within a certain distance of your workplace or stay at home. If your employer says that you have to stay in a certain place when you are on call, then all the hours you are on call will count as time at work. This is still the case even if you're allowed to sleep when you're on call. If you don't have to stay within a certain place then your time on call doesn't count as working time until you actually start work.

So, am I correct in thinking that if I'm housebound, then the company must pay the correct hourly rate, not some arbitary, derisory sum, or the minimum wage, otherwise, I should be able to come and go, within a reasonable distance from home, and respond to a call and return home, as normal on-call workers do?

This could open up a can of worms, and possibly put me in a precarious position, if I raise my concerns, but can anyone on here advise? I've discussed this with team colleagues, and planned on discussing it with our Line Manager, as an item, in a team meeting, to test the water. The thing is, our manager is on call for another system, in a team of six, and he says that he can't take his daughters out or anything, when he's on call, but he's no fool, and must know about working law, not least because the management in our company recently had a session on working law.

p.s. there's also a Union I can join, should I need representing in a tribunal :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:21 pm 
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Sent you a PM.

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:38 pm 
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There are morrrrrrrrrre questions than answers!

Thanks for the advice, it sounds like I need to seek expert advice, to try and un-muddy the waters.

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:41 pm 
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Embers wrote:
There are morrrrrrrrrre questions than answers!

Thanks for the advice, it sounds like I need to seek expert advice, to try and un-muddy the waters.


I think you do really. It is quite complex at times. If you join a Union they should have access to legal advisers but I suspect they will want you to pay subs for a few months first.

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:22 am 
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Left back wrote:
Embers wrote:
There are morrrrrrrrrre questions than answers!

Thanks for the advice, it sounds like I need to seek expert advice, to try and un-muddy the waters.


I think you do really. It is quite complex at times. If you join a Union they should have access to legal advisers but I suspect they will want you to pay subs for a few months first.


Yep, I can understand that, but I neeed to contact them first, to see what's what.

I can't abide injustice, and I feel I'm in that kind of place. There are a number of managers on this project, I would derely love to lamp, even the one woman! When you're 45 and married with two young lads, you're kind of hamstrung. But regardless, I am determind to follow Nutty's path to enlightenment, going forward :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:58 am 
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Many moons ago i knew a lad who worked for the council and he would go on call for gritting.He'd get his head down at home and got paid more if he wasn't called out(inconvenience)than when he was!!
I havn't gone back to work since i broke my hip 18 months ago and i do not miss it one bit.The back stabbing,the politics of the place,being asked to do hours knowing you really couldn't say no.God help me when i have to return :(
Do the on call embers but look for something else,life is too short.The union will help but are you prepared to resign and fight them for constructive dismissal?Or find out they shouldn't be doing it and confront them and then your job is made even worse?
It will **** you up at work and at home,i've been there.If it's anything like my place nobody will back you but they will love you to make a stand as you will be the only one getting grief.
Hope you sort it some how.

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:06 am 
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kenbarlowsslippers wrote:
Many moons ago i knew a lad who worked for the council and he would go on call for gritting.He'd get his head down at home and got paid more if he wasn't called out(inconvenience)than when he was!!
I havn't gone back to work since i broke my hip 18 months ago and i do not miss it one bit.The back stabbing,the politics of the place,being asked to do hours knowing you really couldn't say no.God help me when i have to return :(
Do the on call embers but look for something else,life is too short.The union will help but are you prepared to resign and fight them for constructive dismissal?Or find out they shouldn't be doing it and confront them and then your job is made even worse?
It will **** you up at work and at home,i've been there.If it's anything like my place nobody will back you but they will love you to make a stand as you will be the only one getting grief.
Hope you sort it some how.


Ken, Leftie has given me some advice, but whilst I need to get the complete picture, I realise that I'm up a certain creek without a paddle, in reality, if I push it, so it may be that I wing it, do my thang, and go home, if I'm called out.

Any road, 18 MONTHS OFF WORK! Fook me, what have they paid you all that time? Interestingly enough, my Lino was signed off sick, four months ago, and after some shit at work, and individual meetings with our Senior manager, she aint been since, and I think she's had a breakdown, but whether constructive dismissal is involved, I know not. It's all hush hush.

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:53 am 
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Embers wrote:
kenbarlowsslippers wrote:
Many moons ago i knew a lad who worked for the council and he would go on call for gritting.He'd get his head down at home and got paid more if he wasn't called out(inconvenience)than when he was!!
I havn't gone back to work since i broke my hip 18 months ago and i do not miss it one bit.The back stabbing,the politics of the place,being asked to do hours knowing you really couldn't say no.God help me when i have to return :(
Do the on call embers but look for something else,life is too short.The union will help but are you prepared to resign and fight them for constructive dismissal?Or find out they shouldn't be doing it and confront them and then your job is made even worse?
It will **** you up at work and at home,i've been there.If it's anything like my place nobody will back you but they will love you to make a stand as you will be the only one getting grief.
Hope you sort it some how.


Ken, Leftie has given me some advice, but whilst I need to get the complete picture, I realise that I'm up a certain creek without a paddle, in reality, if I push it, so it may be that I wing it, do my thang, and go home, if I'm called out.

Any road, 18 MONTHS OFF WORK! Fook me, what have they paid you all that time? Interestingly enough, my Lino was signed off sick, four months ago, and after some shit at work, and individual meetings with our Senior manager, she aint been since, and I think she's had a breakdown, but whether constructive dismissal is involved, I know not. It's all hush hush.


Ssp till that ran out and you still accrue holidays.We've had a couple of years as a family that have been harsh to say the least and i suppose that is why it is easier for me to say life is too short.Hope it works out for you.

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:08 am 
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Embers, become an Inspector for us, that means you can be on call for a whole weekend for no pay. You can get called out at the drop of a hat and work 19 hours for no extra pay numerous times per year.Regardless of how many times you get called out you get the princely sum of £15 per turn out, not per on call, per turn out!
You can always join a union though, erm......

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:30 am 
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Rozza wrote:
Embers, become an Inspector for us, that means you can be on call for a whole weekend for no pay. You can get called out at the drop of a hat and work 19 hours for no extra pay numerous times per year.Regardless of how many times you get called out you get the princely sum of £15 per turn out, not per on call, per turn out!
You can always join a union though, erm......


Thanks, that's made me realise how lucky I am! No wonder that Inspector got canned, he couldn't be arsed to attend a call-out :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:51 pm 
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I feel for you Embers as your job ain't a matter of National Security so you should be paid for sitting at home and being bereft of your ale.

I was on CALL for so many years, it became second nature, sometimes had to stay at home by the landline then, allowed to roam within 30 minutes of my house on a PAGER. :lol:

One of the main reasons I jacked in a very promising military career was that I was not in control of my own destiny - example, I'm away on a job for ex-amount of weeks or months and return back to base looking forward to having a party to find out that some Bastard has made me Guard Commander for the Saturday 24-hour shift and there is fook all I can do about it or, claim overtime or time off in lieu. You take it, you eat it up, but no fookin unions unfortunately and they wonder why there ain't got enough boots in uniform. :wink:

All for £14k per year as a Staff Sergeant back in 1988. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:12 pm 
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Would a telephone call to Acas help - I'm not sure if they could advise on the matter?


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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:47 pm 
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portwaywolf wrote:
Would a telephone call to Acas help - I'm not sure if they could advise on the matter?


Yep, they're on my list, and if nothing else, hopefully they could clarify things.

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:07 pm 
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Rozza wrote:
Embers, become an Inspector for us, that means you can be on call for a whole weekend for no pay. You can get called out at the drop of a hat and work 19 hours for no extra pay numerous times per year.Regardless of how many times you get called out you get the princely sum of £15 per turn out, not per on call, per turn out!
You can always join a union though, erm......


You lucky lucky barstewards. We didn't get a dime for turning out no matter how long you were there. You did it for love after promotion to Superintendent........ I would have killed for fifteen quid

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:08 pm 
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Embers wrote:
portwaywolf wrote:
Would a telephone call to Acas help - I'm not sure if they could advise on the matter?


Yep, they're on my list, and if nothing else, hopefully they could clarify things.[/quotes


They'll give your job to an Albanian if you keep moaning.

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:26 pm 
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suiging wrote:
Embers wrote:
portwaywolf wrote:
Would a telephone call to Acas help - I'm not sure if they could advise on the matter?


Yep, they're on my list, and if nothing else, hopefully they could clarify things.[/quotes


They'll give your job to an Albanian if you keep moaning.


A Syrian would do it for half the price. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:56 pm 
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Well, it sounds like I don't know how lucky I am, and I guess compared to 100 years ago, I am, so I should stop whining :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:11 pm 
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Embers wrote:
Well, it sounds like I don't know how lucky I am, and I guess compared to 100 years ago, I am, so I should stop whining :lol:


Didn't you want to be a mod on here?Loads of unpaid work for no reward and in your own time :lol:
Just think of it like that :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:09 pm 
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kenbarlowsslippers wrote:
Embers wrote:
Well, it sounds like I don't know how lucky I am, and I guess compared to 100 years ago, I am, so I should stop whining :lol:


Didn't you want to be a mod on here?Loads of unpaid work for no reward and in your own time :lol:
Just think of it like that :wink:


Whoa, don't let Knocker read this - absent MODS etc. Are day say nothin. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:13 pm 
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Moscow Wolf wrote:
Whoa, don't let Knocker read this - absent MODS etc. Are day say nothin. :lol:


I should have you know that I gave Embers some professional advice privately and I offered him 10% discount on my normal £400 hourly fee. Very fair mates rates for a mod I would say.

Employment law doesn't count for the Forces or the Police of course because you love your vocations so much. Tomorrow, NHS Doctors are going on a strike (although covering some emergencies) and I see that in some areas they are dragging in Army Medical staff to cover. That's how it seems to work.

As I said to Embers and KBS has also alluded to it, there are some protections in employment law but companies know that people need to pay mortgages etc and it can be difficult to prove constructive dismissal which makes it risky to resign. If you really want to go for an employer build up a discrimination claim (race, sex, disability) that's where you can win big if you prove it.

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:18 pm 
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kenbarlowsslippers wrote:
Embers wrote:
Well, it sounds like I don't know how lucky I am, and I guess compared to 100 years ago, I am, so I should stop whining :lol:


Didn't you want to be a mod on here?Loads of unpaid work for no reward and in your own time :lol:
Just think of it like that :wink:


No I didn't, but I was encouraged to put my name up, and came 3rd :lol: Ar woe be doin that again, but the way things are going, we woe need Mods much longer.

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:21 pm 
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Left back wrote:
Moscow Wolf wrote:
Whoa, don't let Knocker read this - absent MODS etc. Are day say nothin. :lol:


I should have you know that I gave Embers some professional advice privately and I offered him 10% discount on my normal £400 hourly fee. Very fair mates rates for a mod I would say.

Employment law doesn't count for the Forces or the Police of course because you love your vocations so much. Tomorrow, NHS Doctors are going on a strike (although covering some emergencies) and I see that in some areas they are dragging in Army Medical staff to cover. That's how it seems to work.

As I said to Embers and KBS has also alluded to it, there are some protections in employment law but companies know that people need to pay mortgages etc and it can be difficult to prove constructive dismissal which makes it risky to resign. If you really want to go for an employer build up a discrimination claim (race, sex, disability) that's where you can win big if you prove it.


Leftie, my next question for you, whilst the bees are still buzzing in my bonnet:

When you leave a company, can they force you to sign a confidentiality agreement?

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:29 pm 
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Embers wrote:
When you leave a company, can they force you to sign a confidentiality agreement?


No they can't do that but they may have put something in your original contract that you signed and which they could rely on. If your job involves access to a client database or copyrighted processes then the chances are that it will be in your contract up front. Also, if you agree any package with them for leaving they will almost certainly want you to sign a non disclosure agreement as part of it.

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:33 pm 
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I just found out that the doctors called off the strike a couple of hours ago. What do I know? - I wasn't on call to find out though.

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:44 pm 
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Left back wrote:
Embers wrote:
When you leave a company, can they force you to sign a confidentiality agreement?


No they can't do that but they may have put something in your original contract that you signed and which they could rely on. If your job involves access to a client database or copyrighted processes then the chances are that it will be in your contract up front. Also, if you agree any package with them for leaving they will almost certainly want you to sign a non disclosure agreement as part of it.


My contract, pre this shower, was 4 weeks notice from me, 4 weeks notice from them, end of. I'm security cleared, and have access to a mission critical system, dealing with highly sensitive information, and know when people were made redundant a few years back, they signed confidentiality agreements, involving a pay-off, but not the likes that Moxey pays off!

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:27 pm 
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The game is afoot!

In an uncanny bit of timing, Lino sent out this email t'other day:

"The laptop will be OK to use in any home Wifi setting."

As you will be aware currently you can only use it at your home address, so this is a step forward in allowing some flexibility.

Restrictions still remain in place with respect to using it on Hotel WiFi or other public locations, including mobile or MiFi tethering.


I wonder what has prompted this, and whether they are fully aware that they have been contravening the EU Working Directive, and continue to do so? Interestingly enough, I was talking to an old colleague about this, and he signed out of it, so he can work more hours. However, the fat fook, ay got a missus, lives on his tod, and now goes on holiday to Thailand several times a year...

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:36 pm 
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Embers wrote:
I wonder what has prompted this, and whether they are fully aware that they have been contravening the EU Working Directive, and continue to do so?


They could have a spy on here of course. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:47 pm 
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Left back wrote:
Embers wrote:
I wonder what has prompted this, and whether they are fully aware that they have been contravening the EU Working Directive, and continue to do so?


They could have a spy on here of course. :wink:


Wouldn't suprise me, nothing is sacred in this day and age.

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 Post subject: Re: 'On-call' working...
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 6:48 pm 
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My mate chief technical chappy in a paper mill has to be on 24 hour call out.....we usually get a good laugh when they phone him on holiday in Thailand.

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