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 Post subject: Ched Evans...
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:32 pm 
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Where does one begin to discuss this matter?

What doe the case have to say about the police, justice and a fair trial?

It seems to me that Evans, the girl, the police concerned with bringing the case to court, the legal procedure, WAR (Women Against Rape) and justice itself have all been on trial in some way. So many loose ends still exist.

Still, despite having been found not guilty, I wonder if many clubs would want to sign him.

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 Post subject: Re: Ched Evans...
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:10 am 
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It's not right that the police brought the prosecution on behalf of the girl who said that she couldn't remember a thing. She went to the police, allegedly, because her friends told her to.

It has been reported that she asked Evans to take her from behind and in the process told him to "fuck me harder". It's also been reported this is something which has been said to two other guys according to two of her ex-"boyfriends". So, was she that drunk that she wasn't a willing partner?

It's interesting as well that The Guardian has chosen selective parts of the case to report by their reporter which has given a "spin" on the case. Evans is a tool but he doesn't deserve seven years in nick for being one.

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 Post subject: Re: Ched Evans...
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:28 am 
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SELWolf wrote:
It's not right that the police brought the prosecution on behalf of the girl who said that she couldn't remember a thing.


You are quite correct Sel, it's not right, the Police dont bring prosecutions of that magnitude, the CPS do.
The Police have an obligation to secure and preserve evidence borne out of an official complaint that is made to them by a member of the public, in this case it was a person reporting rape.
They then impartially have to gather ANY and ALL evidence available which either proves or disproves the allegation regardless of how insignificant it may appear.
Their evidence is then FULLY disclosed to the suspects solicitor immediately PRIOR to obtaining an account from the alleged offender.
The evidence, plus the offenders account (Usually No Comment) plus incidental evidence such as bad character is sent to a reviewing lawyer on CPS who decides, beyond reasonable doubt, that the offender has a case to answer.

ALL the Police do is become a conduit delivering evidence, or lack of it, to CPS, THEY prosecute, the Police dont.

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 Post subject: Re: Ched Evans...
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:48 am 
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He is not guilty.
Anyway if she had taken the two people to the room then doubt creeps in.Just odd that she never invited him in because he lied to get a key to the room and let himself in and then he left by the fire escape.
Then you see Evan's wife stand by him and realise the glamour of being with a footballer is taken above all else.So i'll get me coat as i'm just caught up in the moment :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Ched Evans...
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 12:46 pm 
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The only crime where you are guilty until proven innocent, I've no doubt that some footballers do take advantage of women, but the reverse is also true

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 Post subject: Re: Ched Evans...
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 3:34 pm 
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Ched won't be nightclubbing any more :lol:

If this drunken lass couldn't remember what happened, surely she can't recall whether she consented to having sex, or not? If not, why did the CPS bring the Case to Court?

It will be interesting to see what compo Mr Evans gets, but he's lost the best years of his career...

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 Post subject: Re: Ched Evans...
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:49 am 
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allowed to use 'evidence' that prejudices the decision contrary to law (as i understand it).. as the judge rued 'the law'could in this case be ignored ...how is that justice...someones previous actions shoud not be allowed to pejudice this in this instance -and it has ...thats how hes been found innocent..


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 Post subject: Re: Ched Evans...
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 12:27 pm 
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davejonesears wrote:
allowed to use 'evidence' that prejudices the decision contrary to law (as i understand it).. as the judge rued 'the law'could in this case be ignored ...how is that justice...someones previous actions shoud not be allowed to pejudice this in this instance -and it has ...thats how hes been found innocent..


I am not clear what you are saying Mr ears but here is the CPS guidelines on the use non defendants bad character ...

Non defendants
Non defendants will include victims and prosecution witnesses. The Prosecutors Pledge requires prosecutors to "Protect victims from unwarranted or irrelevant attacks on their character and may seek the court's intervention where cross examination is considered to be inappropriate or oppressive."

Introducing evidence of bad character or questioning upon it now requires the permission of the court (section 100(4)) and the evidence is only admissible if:

It is important explanatory evidence (section 100(1)(a)) (i.e. evidence without which the court or jury would find it impossible or difficult properly to understand other evidence in the case (section 100(2)(a)) or,
It has substantial probative value in relation to a matter which-
- Is in issue in the proceedings, and
- Is of substantial importance in the context of the case as a whole (section 100(1)(b)), or
- All parties to the proceedings agree (section 100(1)(c)).

Permission of the court means on judges authority.

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 Post subject: Re: Ched Evans...
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 12:55 pm 
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Rozza wrote:
davejonesears wrote:
allowed to use 'evidence' that prejudices the decision contrary to law (as i understand it).. as the judge rued 'the law'could in this case be ignored ...how is that justice...someones previous actions shoud not be allowed to pejudice this in this instance -and it has ...thats how hes been found innocent..


I am not clear what you are saying Mr ears but here is the CPS guidelines on the use non defendants bad character ...

Non defendants
Non defendants will include victims and prosecution witnesses. The Prosecutors Pledge requires prosecutors to "Protect victims from unwarranted or irrelevant attacks on their character and may seek the court's intervention where cross examination is considered to be inappropriate or oppressive."

Introducing evidence of bad character or questioning upon it now requires the permission of the court (section 100(4)) and the evidence is only admissible if:

It is important explanatory evidence (section 100(1)(a)) (i.e. evidence without which the court or jury would find it impossible or difficult properly to understand other evidence in the case (section 100(2)(a)) or,
It has substantial probative value in relation to a matter which-
- Is in issue in the proceedings, and
- Is of substantial importance in the context of the case as a whole (section 100(1)(b)), or
- All parties to the proceedings agree (section 100(1)(c)).

Permission of the court means on judges authority.


From what i understand -and only from what read of course- he was allowed to use accounts from others as to the accusors previous antics...even through this goes againt a law previously enshrined in the 90'S to stop exactly that as it prejudices the minds of the jurors.
If that is the case then irresepective of why it was allowed 'in this special case'(according to the judge) - I can see how It would introduce prejudice.

Now I can how that may fit into the rulings provide above - but surely that implies that previous behavious can be used to imply future behavours.

and I dont quite understand why this was ony bought up now...?

British law...the best in the world...if you can afford it of course.


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 Post subject: Re: Ched Evans...
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:41 pm 
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Ironfistedmonk wrote:
The only crime where you are guilty until proven innocent, I've no doubt that some footballers do take advantage of women, but the reverse is also true


Also a crime in which the alleged victims are often treated like the criminal. I imagine it's one of the more difficult crimes to prosecute or defend. Investigations need to start ASAP. It's very difficult for actual victims to come forward. In the States, sexual assault and rape happen far more often than they're reported or tried.

I think celebrities (and men in general) just have to learn more about consent. If you do, and are careful with the circumstances in which you engage in sexual intercourse, there will be less problems.


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 Post subject: Re: Ched Evans...
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:55 pm 
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MichiganWolf wrote:
Ironfistedmonk wrote:
The only crime where you are guilty until proven innocent, I've no doubt that some footballers do take advantage of women, but the reverse is also true


Also a crime in which the alleged victims are often treated like the criminal. I imagine it's one of the more difficult crimes to prosecute or defend. Investigations need to start ASAP. It's very difficult for actual victims to come forward. In the States, sexual assault and rape happen far more often than they're reported or tried.

I think celebrities (and men in general) just have to learn more about consent. If you do, and are careful with the circumstances in which you engage in sexual intercourse, there will be less problems.


There is a need for small flesh coloured "Dash Cams" One on the end of the old tadger would but all of this nonsense to bed.....(so to speak)

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 Post subject: Re: Ched Evans...
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:27 pm 
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davejonesears wrote:
Rozza wrote:
davejonesears wrote:
allowed to use 'evidence' that prejudices the decision contrary to law (as i understand it).. as the judge rued 'the law'could in this case be ignored ...how is that justice...someones previous actions shoud not be allowed to pejudice this in this instance -and it has ...thats how hes been found innocent..


I am not clear what you are saying Mr ears but here is the CPS guidelines on the use non defendants bad character ...

Non defendants
Non defendants will include victims and prosecution witnesses. The Prosecutors Pledge requires prosecutors to "Protect victims from unwarranted or irrelevant attacks on their character and may seek the court's intervention where cross examination is considered to be inappropriate or oppressive."

Introducing evidence of bad character or questioning upon it now requires the permission of the court (section 100(4)) and the evidence is only admissible if:

It is important explanatory evidence (section 100(1)(a)) (i.e. evidence without which the court or jury would find it impossible or difficult properly to understand other evidence in the case (section 100(2)(a)) or,
It has substantial probative value in relation to a matter which-
- Is in issue in the proceedings, and
- Is of substantial importance in the context of the case as a whole (section 100(1)(b)), or
- All parties to the proceedings agree (section 100(1)(c)).

Permission of the court means on judges authority.


From what i understand -and only from what read of course- he was allowed to use accounts from others as to the accusors previous antics...even through this goes againt a law previously enshrined in the 90'S to stop exactly that as it prejudices the minds of the jurors.
If that is the case then irresepective of why it was allowed 'in this special case'(according to the judge) - I can see how It would introduce prejudice.

Now I can how that may fit into the rulings provide above - but surely that implies that previous behavious can be used to imply future behavours.

and I dont quite understand why this was ony bought up now...?

British law...the best in the world...if you can afford it of course.


Bad character can be used as shown above, it can be used against all parties, defendants/co-defendants, witnesses and plaintiffs as long as one of the seven criteria apply. witnesses were called by the defence quite rightly to provide that evidence, which in turn was used by the judge/jury.
I think you are reffering to the cross examination of victims by the defence in rape cases that was seriously addressed and stopped to some extent, as being one of the main reasons that convictions for Rape are so low. It was visiting the crime upon the victim again during this cross examination which made it so heinous.

Rape, apart from in the main 'Stranger Rape' focuses on one point and one point only, consent.An unconcious male or female cannot give informed consent to sex therefore rape is committed, unconcious obviously can mean drunk or drugged.
During the act of consensual sex, the female might refuse to perform oral sex on the male, he ignores that refusal and penetrates her mouth, the offence of Rape is then complete because of solely that act, BUT, the examining court will look at the fact that the victim agreed to have sex anyway and the gravity of her complaint is then diminished.

Whether or not CPS feel that they are under public scrutiny to improve conviction rates for rape, or that their willingness to prosecute is more favourable when so called celebrities are involved is open to question?

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 Post subject: Re: Ched Evans...
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:06 pm 
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It's hard enough getting women to report rape as it is (not counting the abysmal conviction rates). What chance now if they feel the defence will bring up her former sexual partners and sexual antics for everyone to see?

I also believe the girlfriend of Ched Evans put up a cash 'reward' for people to come forward with information. Surely that would taint what would be said too?

Guess not. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Ched Evans...
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:55 pm 
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Rozza wrote:
SELWolf wrote:
It's not right that the police brought the prosecution on behalf of the girl who said that she couldn't remember a thing.


You are quite correct Sel, it's not right, the Police dont bring prosecutions of that magnitude, the CPS do.


I don't know how these things work, perhaps you could explain:

For the CPS to know about individual cases don't they have to be referred to the CPS for a decision? Don't the CPS have to make that decision on the basis of what the police say? Presumably (I might be wrong) the girl went to the police and not the CPS.

How does it work?

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 Post subject: Re: Ched Evans...
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:53 pm 
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SELWolf wrote:
Rozza wrote:
SELWolf wrote:
It's not right that the police brought the prosecution on behalf of the girl who said that she couldn't remember a thing.


You are quite correct Sel, it's not right, the Police dont bring prosecutions of that magnitude, the CPS do.


I don't know how these things work, perhaps you could explain:

For the CPS to know about individual cases don't they have to be referred to the CPS for a decision? Don't the CPS have to make that decision on the basis of what the police say? Presumably (I might be wrong) the girl went to the police and not the CPS.

How does it work?


I thought I had explained Sel. Anyroad, here ya goo, knock yourself out.... http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/dire ... 5.html#a04

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 Post subject: Re: Ched Evans...
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:03 pm 
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Rozza wrote:

I thought I had explained Sel. Anyroad, here ya goo, knock yourself out.... http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/dire ... 5.html#a04


Sorry, you did, I was half asleep following a return from a long weekend away and the link didn't work. But it seems to me that the police are the front line who referred the decision to the CPS when they could (it seems to me) have been more circumspect having front line contact. So the CPS make a poor decision on the basis of what the police told them but get the blame when it goes wrong.

As I see it, the CPS are part and parcel of the police process...others will no doubt take a different view but what do I know?

Edit:
It does work now:

Quote:
4. Police duty to assess evidence before charging or referral
Where a police decision maker considers there may be sufficient evidence to charge they will assess the key evidence to ensure the appropriate Test can be met before proceeding to charge or referring the case to a prosecutor. If the Test is not met and the case cannot be strengthened by further investigation the police will take no further action unless the decision requires the assessment of complex evidence or legal issues.

Where the police proceed to charge in accordance with this Guidance they will assess the case to determine:

the evidence which supports the charge;
the justification for treating the case as an anticipated guilty plea suitable for sentence in a magistrates’ court (where that is a requirement);
the reason why the public interest requires prosecution rather than any other disposal.
Where the police proceed to charge an offence where the suspect has put forward a specific defence or denied the offence in interview the police decision maker will record the reason for doing so on an MG6 and provide a copy to the CPS with the file for the first hearing in the case.

5. Requirement on police to refer cases to prosecutors
If following assessment a police decision maker considers there is sufficient evidence to charge a suspect and the case is one which this Guidance requires to be referred to a prosecutor to determine whether the suspect is to be charged the case shall be so referred. The police decision maker will record on the MG3 a short overview of the reasons why there is sufficient evidence to charge in accordance with The Code for Crown Prosecutors and the application of the Full Code Test or the Threshold Test and why a prosecution would be in the public interest. The custody officer will determine whether the suspect should be detained in custody or released on bail to facilitate the referral. The police will then authorise the case to be referred in accordance with this Guidance at the earliest practical opportunity.


So it seems that I wasn't far wrong. :smt017

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 Post subject: Re: Ched Evans...
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:09 pm 
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SpaceMonkey wrote:
It's hard enough getting women to report rape as it is (not counting the abysmal conviction rates). What chance now if they feel the defence will bring up her former sexual partners and sexual antics for everyone to see?

I also believe the girlfriend of Ched Evans put up a cash 'reward' for people to come forward with information. Surely that would taint what would be said too?

Guess not. :roll:


I'm with you ...on this one anyway :)


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