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 Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:15 pm 
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Just confirms my belief that the Labour party are being opportunistic and hoping to force a general election rather than considering what is the best for the country at this time.

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 Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:33 am 
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Mervyn 'Penfold' King weighs in.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... a-betrayal

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 Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:12 am 
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European Court of Justice Advocate General Manuel Campos Sanchez-Bordona says the UK can unilaterally revoke Article 50 to leave the EU.

Give it time.

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 Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:59 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
European Court of Justice Advocate General Manuel Campos Sanchez-Bordona says the UK can unilaterally revoke Article 50 to leave the EU.

Give it time.


His opinion when asked by a group of Scottish MPs, who represent who exactly ? The man's last opinion was on the culling of parakeets in Southern Spain. If it wasn't for real, this would be funny

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 Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:19 pm 
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suiging wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
European Court of Justice Advocate General Manuel Campos Sanchez-Bordona says the UK can unilaterally revoke Article 50 to leave the EU.

Give it time.


His opinion when asked by a group of Scottish MPs, who represent who exactly ? The man's last opinion was on the culling of parakeets in Southern Spain. If it wasn't for real, this would be funny


You may dislike it, but that view carries massive weight and wil turn peoples heads.

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 Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:31 pm 
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It certainly will turn heads that is for sure, the first step on the way to a second referendum the way things are going, not many want a hard Brexit, nobody wants a No Deal but nobody has a sound agreeable plan. Now the contempt issue has gone against the Government, a General Election looms nearer. Corbyn gets in, Article 50 rescinded and the 52% of Leave voters will be outraged with "democracy". It really is the biggest political dogs dinner that I have seen in the UK in my time on this planet. I think I'll emigrate soon, do they still offer £10 assisted passages to Australia..?

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 Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:21 pm 
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I would expect Leave to win a second referendum by an even larger number as the economic scaremongering was proven to be nonsense on stilts. Conservative party needs a clear out of some of their MPs, and a new leader.

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 Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:50 pm 
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BBW

Funnily enough though I supported Remain and think everything about Brexit is s huge waste of time I could accept it more easily if there was a second vote and Leave won again but with an honest acceptance that the country businesses and ordinary families are likely to be worse off for some time economically and that health and social care will suffer. . It was the monumental fraud of the Leave campaign first time round that was unacceptable to me rich men with their imperial glory fantasies telling everyone that we could have our cake and eat it.
I suspect many people would vote Leave in response to perceived injustice on the negotiation outcome but understanding that there would be a hard road ahead. That would be fair enough.


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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:17 am 
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The government is in freefall and all and sundry in the establishment are in damage limitation mode.

Wall to wall coverage of Tory ministers, ex ministers and MPs trying to prevent the tide of change sweeping this sorry lot away.

Its full popcorn season.

Tories in waist high shit thats rising.

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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:57 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
The government is in freefall and all and sundry in the establishment are in damage limitation mode.

Wall to wall coverage of Tory ministers, ex ministers and MPs trying to prevent the tide of change sweeping this sorry lot away.

Its full popcorn season.

Tories in waist high shit thats rising.


The crux of their difficulties is they are continually trying to suppress the details that set out just how bad the deal and leaving the EU will be for the country.

Davis started this shower with his "we've got 50-60 sector analyses done", which they then had to destroy when forced to make them public and instead offered up some limp "summary" that said nothing - the same trick they tried this week.

The disaster capitalists presumably want the legal advice on the deal published as further fuel to see the deal crash and no-deal as the alternative. Thankfully, Dominic Grieve has done his best to nip that in the bud with his motion.

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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:13 am 
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Eventually there should be nowhere to hide, Tories offered a referendum but hadn't the intelligence and imagination to provide a worthwhile EU exit.

Not only that they promoted idle sods like David Davis to waste away the hours doing Jack shit.

Typical Tories promise the world, deliver fuck all.

You now have the UK media unwilling to call them out for what they are...Incompetent.

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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:25 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
Eventually there should be nowhere to hide, Tories offered a referendum but hadn't the intelligence and imagination to provide a worthwhile EU exit.

Not only that they promoted idle sods like David Davis to waste away the hours doing Jack shit.

Typical Tories promise the world, deliver fuck all.

You now have the UK media unwilling to call them out for what they are...Incompetent.


Will Kate Hoey deliver for the 77% of voters in Vauxhall who want to remain though? Surely their MP of 30 years will be fighting their corner hard.

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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:34 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
suiging wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
European Court of Justice Advocate General Manuel Campos Sanchez-Bordona says the UK can unilaterally revoke Article 50 to leave the EU.

Give it time.


His opinion when asked by a group of Scottish MPs, who represent who exactly ? The man's last opinion was on the culling of parakeets in Southern Spain. If it wasn't for real, this would be funny


You may dislike it, but that view carries massive weight and wil turn peoples heads.


In the local Pet Shop.

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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:36 am 
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shropswolf wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
Eventually there should be nowhere to hide, Tories offered a referendum but hadn't the intelligence and imagination to provide a worthwhile EU exit.

Not only that they promoted idle sods like David Davis to waste away the hours doing Jack shit.

Typical Tories promise the world, deliver fuck all.

You now have the UK media unwilling to call them out for what they are...Incompetent.


Will Kate Hoey deliver for the 77% of voters in Vauxhall who want to remain though? Surely their MP of 30 years will be fighting their corner hard.


No doubt the BBC and establishment media will be giving her and her type plenty of air time because they know these people look to undermine Jeremy Corbyn at every opportunity.

Oh for the day when the Tories sink in their own shit without trying to add Labour into the mix.

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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:17 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
No doubt the BBC and establishment media will be giving her and her type plenty of air time because they know these people look to undermine Jeremy Corbyn at every opportunity.



You seem to be obsessed with this issue. Despite the fact that when you have specifically criticised the BBC over not reporting things etc. and I have shown you examples to prove you incorrect you are totally unwilling to accept that there is an alternative view to yours on this. It's almost as if you have to have an excuse for Labour not being massively ahead in the polls which they should be given the current state of affairs and the average person is not capable of seeing the truth - or your version of it. You do not give the average person sufficient credit for making their own minds up about issues, underestimate the populace at your peril I say.

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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:30 pm 
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We remember that Mrs May was initially a remainer and I remember that there were many, including some on here, who said immediately after the referendum that the government would find a way to stay in anyway. Given that the European Court of Justice has suggested that Clause 50 can be revoked unilaterally by the UK and that Dominic Grieve's proposal could take the responsibility for further action out of Mrs May's hands thus relieving her of the responsibility of implementing the will of the people does anyone smell conspiracy here?

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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:13 pm 
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Left back wrote:
We remember that Mrs May was initially a remainer and I remember that there were many, including some on here, who said immediately after the referendum that the government would find a way to stay in anyway. Given that the European Court of Justice has suggested that Clause 50 can be revoked unilaterally by the UK and that Dominic Grieve's proposal could take the responsibility for further action out of Mrs May's hands thus relieving her of the responsibility of implementing the will of the people does anyone smell conspiracy here?


I'm afraid that is exactly why I am keeping out of the debate. Labour are just as usual, hoping they can somehow benefit from the whole process going tits up, not giving one jot or tittle for the people of the country , simply caring about their own power game. I'm afraid the conspiracy that is unfolding has been fairly transparent for some time now. Parliament was asked the question "shall we let the people decide?" All parties overwhelmingly said yes. Because the elite on all sides lost, they are now trying every trick in the book to reverse the democratic process.

It makes me feel quite sick.

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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:13 pm 
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Anyone heard or seen Jeremy Corbyn ?

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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:07 pm 
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suiging wrote:
Anyone heard or seen Jeremy Corbyn ?


Top bloke.

Stand back and let the Tories drown in their own shit.

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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:36 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
suiging wrote:
Anyone heard or seen Jeremy Corbyn ?


Top bloke.

Stand back and let the Tories drown in their own shit.


Oh I see. Country needs debate from statesmen and women of all colours and affiliations to avert a political crisis, of national importance, and Corbyn remains silent as he's simple not a statesman . A simple political chancer of no weight or consequence.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:12 am 
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Took a bit of a break and I come back and it's still going on in here! :lol:

Missed this place, also, the Tories didn't HAVE To put May in charge, all the Brexiteers went AWOL or stabbed each other in the back when it came to stepping up. Almost like they realised it was a no win situation and didn't want to be tainted by it all 8)

5 days till the vote, literally any of the 3 options for Brexit are equally likely to happen it seems. Crazy.


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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:07 am 
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Theresa May is reportedly being urged by her own cabinet, including her last Chief Whip, to call off Tuesday’s vote on her miserable Brexit deal.

‘One Cabinet Minister said that enthusiasm for finding a solution on behalf of Mrs May was waning’.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:36 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
Theresa May is reportedly being urged by her own cabinet, including her last Chief Whip, to call off Tuesday’s vote on her miserable Brexit deal.

‘One Cabinet Minister said that enthusiasm for finding a solution on behalf of Mrs May was waning’.


The government probably has to at least offer it up for ratification, even knowing it will fail. I don't think the EU will even engage on the issue at all unless the deal has been conclusively rejected first.

What Parliament will struggle with though is the concept that whatever future trade deal the UK wants to seek, whatever the consensus in Parliament, be it "Norway plus", "Canada plus", "single market membership", there will still need to be a interim period because an EU nation cannot agree its own trade deals, so the UK cannot do anything until leaving in March 2019.

Given that there isn't the will in Parliament for exiting without any deal, then there will firstly still need to be some form of legal agreement to govern that interim period; this is precisely what the Withdrawal Bill is supposed to achieve. And that agreement is always likely to include a backstop provision regarding the Irish border because it is the border being formed between one trade zone and another.

Even temporarily revoking Article 50 does not solve that conundrum, it only stalls for time in which to decide the desired end destination of travel, but Parliament alone cannot agree on the withdrawal terms as there are two sides to any negotiation, and the EU will not negotiate any terms with Article 50 suspended.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:13 am 
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shropswolf wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
Theresa May is reportedly being urged by her own cabinet, including her last Chief Whip, to call off Tuesday’s vote on her miserable Brexit deal.

‘One Cabinet Minister said that enthusiasm for finding a solution on behalf of Mrs May was waning’.


The government probably has to at least offer it up for ratification, even knowing it will fail. I don't think the EU will even engage on the issue at all unless the deal has been conclusively rejected first.

What Parliament will struggle with though is the concept that whatever future trade deal the UK wants to seek, whatever the consensus in Parliament, be it "Norway plus", "Canada plus", "single market membership", there will still need to be a interim period because an EU nation cannot agree its own trade deals, so the UK cannot do anything until leaving in March 2019.

Given that there isn't the will in Parliament for exiting without any deal, then there will firstly still need to be some form of legal agreement to govern that interim period; this is precisely what the Withdrawal Bill is supposed to achieve. And that agreement is always likely to include a backstop provision regarding the Irish border because it is the border being formed between one trade zone and another.

Even temporarily revoking Article 50 does not solve that conundrum, it only stalls for time in which to decide the desired end destination of travel, but Parliament alone cannot agree on the withdrawal terms as there are two sides to any negotiation, and the EU will not negotiate any terms with Article 50 suspended.


The majority in Parliament were for remain. The majority of the people were for leave. Every household 9.3 million of them received a pro-EU pamphlet trying to convince them to stay. The pamphlet was quite emphatic in it's conclusion that the will of the people would be listened to and parliament totally agreed by passing the referendum into law.

We do not need an agreement based on any other countries circumstances or ideals. We are the fifth largest economy in the world, and once we shake off the utter defeatism and lack of belief in our own people ,that has hamstrung this country for so long, we will succeed. Does Canada have a "Norway" style agreement with the USA? Does China look for blessings and permissions from it's nearest neighbours like Pakistan, before it trades with the rest of the world ? Does it buggery. We are becoming a laughing stock with countries like Australia, not because we want to rejoin the rest of the world, but because we don't have the balls to do it in government, and we listen to Guardian readers for our inspiration in diplomacy and trade negotiations.

At present, we have enacted, as is our right, Article 50. We voted to leave in the largest people's vote in history, approved by statute ,and promised by all parliamentarians. May's deal takes away this right. The Irish problem is smoke and mirrors. If anyone believes it was Blair that brought the murdering bastards to the table and not the thought of life sentences as Special Branch closed in, needs to get out more. Generations in Ireland have now lived in comparative peace. The gunmen could and did only survive on intimidation and being able by fear to hide in their communities. They could not hide now. The youth of the country are not so easy to intimidate, and the advent of YouTube, Facebook and the like, empower through social media, people who won't sit by and say nothing if their lives are disrupted again. The backstop is utter bollocks.

We have had a people's vote. We have had the will of Parliament expressed by allowing them a say in that vote, and the consequences of it. To give away our sovereignty ( May's plan, and the desire of every snowflake who just wants to sit back in the warm glow of Franco/Germanic benevolence ) is nothing short of criminal, and the constitution of this country will suffer and be shaken to the core if the people's will is not followed.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:29 am 
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“It is like buying a house that you have only seen from the outside. You hand over the full asking price at the outset, upfront. You sign all the legal transaction documents without even agreeing on the fixtures, fittings and completion date, or indeed knowing whether the immigration status of your family allows you to live there. Only after that do you commission a survey, the results of which you do not share with your family despite eventually finding out that the neighbours have an unlimited right of way across your garden and unfettered access to your garden pond - and you have no indication of when you will be able to move in. Who in their right mind would agree to such a deal on buying a house, let alone on such an important issue as the future constitutional basis of our whole country?

Tim Loughton: Former Tory Minister

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:24 pm 
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suiging wrote:
“It is like buying a house that you have only seen from the outside. You hand over the full asking price at the outset, upfront. You sign all the legal transaction documents without even agreeing on the fixtures, fittings and completion date, or indeed knowing whether the immigration status of your family allows you to live there. Only after that do you commission a survey, the results of which you do not share with your family despite eventually finding out that the neighbours have an unlimited right of way across your garden and unfettered access to your garden pond - and you have no indication of when you will be able to move in. Who in their right mind would agree to such a deal on buying a house, let alone on such an important issue as the future constitutional basis of our whole country?

Tim Loughton: Former Tory Minister


The UK isn't "buying" anything though.

If he is referring to payments to the EU, that is the settlement of obligations entered into in the past, not a down payment on a future benefit.

A really poor metaphor all in all and a symbol of the muddled thinking that blights British politicians, hence this total mess of a situation.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:02 pm 
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shropswolf wrote:
suiging wrote:
“It is like buying a house that you have only seen from the outside. You hand over the full asking price at the outset, upfront. You sign all the legal transaction documents without even agreeing on the fixtures, fittings and completion date, or indeed knowing whether the immigration status of your family allows you to live there. Only after that do you commission a survey, the results of which you do not share with your family despite eventually finding out that the neighbours have an unlimited right of way across your garden and unfettered access to your garden pond - and you have no indication of when you will be able to move in. Who in their right mind would agree to such a deal on buying a house, let alone on such an important issue as the future constitutional basis of our whole country?

Tim Loughton: Former Tory Minister


The UK isn't "buying" anything though.

If he is referring to payments to the EU, that is the settlement of obligations entered into in the past, not a down payment on a future benefit.

A really poor metaphor all in all and a symbol of the muddled thinking that blights British politicians, hence this total mess of a situation.


Even May when pulled up over the 39 billion in parliament had to admit it was only an estimate and we would be at the mercy of further negociations to limit the payments to that figure.

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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:30 pm 
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This government has been an absolute joke in these negotiations.

The single failure to even consider or prepare adequately for a 'no deal' -irrespective of any appetite to implement it - has done more to undermine this countries position than any other failing.

Both the Prime minister and the chancellor are both 'remain' leaning and together this dynamic duo have been complicit in ensuring this eventuality can be 'dismissed' , culminating in today's announcement that 'the optimal time for a no deal has now passed'.

Just what have they been doing for 2 and a half years?!
I have no sympathy whatsoever for either of them- they and they alone carry the can for this lack of preparation, there are those that seem to have sympathy for Mrs May saying she's done her best - absolute rubbish says I.

Their approach is at best negligence in public office , and at worst a subversive attempt to keep the country tied to the EU in direct contradiction to Mays original statement and more importantly the Tory Manifesto- it is an absolute disgrace.

She should have sacked Hammond months ago , but the subversive machination of the Tory party
are only matched -nah bettered- by those of the opposition.

Both parties - indeed there is an argument that one could extend that to MP's of all parties -are ignoring their key electorate in favour of keeping the status Quo.

A final hurrah is saved of course for the media - the BBC being the main protagonists of the battle to remain

Just goes to show there is no true democracy- how silly of us to think otherwise.

Pathetic.


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 Post Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:59 pm 
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All you Brexiteers who voted out so we could make our own decisions here how you feeling now the choice of decision makers comes down to Theresa May Jeremy Corbyn Boris Johnson John McDonnell etc...?


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 Post Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:39 pm 
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raggedwolf wrote:
All you Brexiteers who voted out so we could make our own decisions here how you feeling now the choice of decision makers comes down to Theresa May Jeremy Corbyn Boris Johnson John McDonnell etc...?


I'm not sure I understand what point you are making..but just to clarify...I made my choice in June 2016..to leave the EU... unambiguously and unequivocally....I expect MPs to honour their manifesto and hnour that referendum result..as per Cameron's leaflet sent out to every household ...out is out !


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