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 Post subject: Re: Jeremy Corbyn
 Post Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:09 pm 
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Please see above and learn.

All who disagree with Corbyn and his Marxist cabal are " Right Wing ".

Come the revolution.....

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 Post subject: Re: Jeremy Corbyn
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:39 am 
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I thought Broken Dreams was a goodish book and welcome good research into public figures. Its the tittle tattle variety that has me looking for the exit door.

Whats the worst exposure of Jeremy within this book?

Looking forward to such books on the Johnson family of which Bower has greater insight.[/quote]

Will the general public ever vote for this man to take over this country ? At a time when May makes horrific mistake after horrific mistake, she still comes out in all polls over Corbyn.[/quote]

If everyone was as right wing as you Jeremy would never get elected. likewise if everyone was as left wing as me Jeremy would rout the Tories.

Its all those in the middle, many without political leanings who have to be brought onside by either party..[/quote]

Where do I state ALL, much like the Daily Fail there is a lack of accuracy.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeremy Corbyn
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:22 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:

Where do I state ALL, much like the Daily Fail there is a lack of accuracy.



it is the sort of generalization which you often use when talking, for example, about Tories as a group or attributing causes to correlations (e.g Pressure on the pound is because of Brexit impasse)

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 Post subject: Re: Jeremy Corbyn
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:38 pm 
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I read all the pages about Corbyn yesterday, there were around 20 pages of it all, although about only 6 or 7 from Bower's book extracts. It was a real hatchet job done by the Mail on Sunday's editorial staff, they must be frightened of a potential upcoming General Election and want to influence the public about the possibility of Corbyn becoming our future PM. It was very OTT but the crux of the matter is in the details put across by Bower about Corbyn, his past involvement with the IRA and other suspect organisations and the fact that Corbyn has "hardly ever read a book since his schooldays". The day after the Brexit vote he was uncontactable on any phone and kept himself out of the media eye. His ambivalence over Brexit is shameful sitting on the fence and not geared to the national interest. He has never admitted what he voted for at Brexit, Seumas Milne ( Corbyn's close advisor) and John McDonnell apparently voted Leave but they do not now seem show that when dealing with the current mess in Parliament. Ken Livingstone said to Corbyn when he was elected Labour leader: " You're too nice to be a leader, no one is scared of you." Corbyn replied: " John McDonnell will do the scary stuff."

Be interesting to read what is put out next weekend.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeremy Corbyn
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:58 pm 
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yes. I made a point of reading it. Definitely a hatchet job by the Daily Mail but that's what we would expect. It does reinforce my fears that Corbyn couldn't manage a p*** up in a brewery and that if Corbyn did become PM he would simply be manipulated by the likes i
of McDonnell and McClusky.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeremy Corbyn
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:58 pm 
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Beware Jeremy Corbyn the dangerous hero

During a meeting at the HoC involving his MPs he was concerned that the cleaners would finish late. He insisted that everyone wash their own cups He also told staff to ensure the cleaners received overtime.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeremy Corbyn
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:17 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
Beware Jeremy Corbyn the dangerous hero

During a meeting at the HoC involving his MPs he was concerned that the cleaners would finish late. He insisted that everyone wash their own cups He also told staff to ensure the cleaners received overtime.


That clean your own utensils rule later became the norm and those cleaners were made redundant as there was no work for them, cheers Jezz.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeremy Corbyn
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:51 am 
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If Corbyn has no real chance of entering Downing Street, why are wealthy, right-wing owners of some of the British press so keen to target him?

Why, if democratic socialism is so unpopular, would any of this be necessary?

The answer is simple: because they are scared.

Though the establishment and the powerful tell us that democratic socialist policies are unpopular and outdated, public opinion says otherwise.

A recent YouGov poll showed that 74 per cent back the introduction of rent caps, 63 per cent to see workers on boards and 60 per cent want the railways returned to national ownership.

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/12/attempts ... 8519724/?i

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 Post subject: Re: Jeremy Corbyn
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:51 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
If Corbyn has no real chance of entering Downing Street, why are wealthy, right-wing owners of some of the British press so keen to target him?

Why, if democratic socialism is so unpopular, would any of this be necessary?

The answer is simple: because they are scared.

Though the establishment and the powerful tell us that democratic socialist policies are unpopular and outdated, public opinion says otherwise.

A recent YouGov poll showed that 74 per cent back the introduction of rent caps, 63 per cent to see workers on boards and 60 per cent want the railways returned to national ownership.

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/12/attempts ... 8519724/?i


They are keen to target him, as they see what lurks in the shadows behind him. They are aware that the Labour, or indeed Tory till I die mentality still exists, and no matter how odious, thick, and downright dangerous he is, many would vote for Basil Brush if somehow ( far too intellectual ) he became leader of so so called, once great Labour party.

No one in his party is asking why Corbyn had constant talks with Sinn Fein about a united Ireland, rather than the SDLP, who were affiliated to Labour and wished to gain Irish Independence by the ballot rather than the gun. No one asks why he appoints card carrying communists to be his "Personal" advisors. No one pulls him up from within his party on his blatant anti-semitism, simply jumping on the "we will stamp it out" bandwagon when the bloody leader is the prime example of it, or his .........on and on. They don't because he's Labour, and their granddads voted Labour, and so will they. Thus, genuine fear exists that by hideous default, this ogre may one day get in and turn this county into a European Venezuela ..

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 Post subject: Re: Jeremy Corbyn
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:44 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
If Corbyn has no real chance of entering Downing Street, why are wealthy, right-wing owners of some of the British press so keen to target him?

Why, if democratic socialism is so unpopular, would any of this be necessary?

The answer is simple: because they are scared.

Though the establishment and the powerful tell us that democratic socialist policies are unpopular and outdated, public opinion says otherwise.

A recent YouGov poll showed that 74 per cent back the introduction of rent caps, 63 per cent to see workers on boards and 60 per cent want the railways returned to national ownership.

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/12/attempts ... 8519724/?i


I agree that there are many, particularly in the right wing press, who are frightened of Corbyn becoming PM (I don't believe it is democratic socialism though - there is no great freedom of thought allowed if you want to be part of the in crowd.) and that is mainly because they fear the destruction of the economy. The main flaw in your argument with those selective statistics though is that the latest Yougov poll gave the Tories a lead even at a time when they are fighting with each other and struggling with Brexit - that doesn't suggest to me that public opinion is in favour of the Labour regime.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeremy Corbyn
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:00 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
If Corbyn has no real chance of entering Downing Street, why are wealthy, right-wing owners of some of the British press so keen to target him?

Why, if democratic socialism is so unpopular, would any of this be necessary?

The answer is simple: because they are scared.

Though the establishment and the powerful tell us that democratic socialist policies are unpopular and outdated, public opinion says otherwise.

A recent YouGov poll showed that 74 per cent back the introduction of rent caps, 63 per cent to see workers on boards and 60 per cent want the railways returned to national ownership.

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/12/attempts ... 8519724/?i


And dozens of % will say they would pay more tax to spend on NHS.... until they get in the voting booth when they suddenly remember their wallet and change their minds. Polls are polls. People respond with 'PC' answers (especially if the pollster is an attractive young person....!)

And all those wanting railways returned to national ownership have no memory of the chaos when it WAS. Those of us who do, do NOT mourn! And so much of the current problems are the fault of Railtrack - the one bit of the network that IS nationally owned....

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 Post subject: Re: Jeremy Corbyn
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:31 pm 
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Labour gets practically full marks for accuracy of its political broadcast.

Experts award 97% after fact check.


Imagine if all parties TOLD the truth.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeremy Corbyn
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:30 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
Labour gets practically full marks for accuracy of its political broadcast.

Experts award 97% after fact check.


Imagine if all parties TOLD the truth.


Am yow Donald Trump?

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 Post subject: Re: Jeremy Corbyn
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:49 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
Labour gets practically full marks for accuracy of its political broadcast.

Experts award 97% after fact check.


Imagine if all parties TOLD the truth.



Telling the truth on facts is easy. The problem is that people use facts to make assertions which are not necessarily true and also, as last night, they go on to make promises which can't be tested at this stage. For example, the broadcast referred to shortages of staff within the NHS, generally accepted as a fact against calculated requirements, however, the assertion is that it is totally the fault of the Tory Government which is only an opinion. They then say that they will sort it which is a promise which can't be tested at the moment.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeremy Corbyn
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:22 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
Labour gets practically full marks for accuracy of its political broadcast.

Experts award 97% after fact check.


Imagine if all parties TOLD the truth.


based on the presumably impartial study how did the other parties fair?

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 Post subject: Re: Jeremy Corbyn
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:26 pm 
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whelp wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
Labour gets practically full marks for accuracy of its political broadcast.

Experts award 97% after fact check.


Imagine if all parties TOLD the truth.


based on the presumably impartial study how did the other parties fair?


Yes. It would be interesting to know who undertook the study and whether they have any studies of other parties broadcasts available.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeremy Corbyn
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:37 pm 
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I just read the text of what the Broadcast said about the NHS yesterday. Below are some of the comments they made and my responses to them. I wonder if some of those unproven statements were included in the analysis.

“No one comes into nursing for an easy ride – they come in to help people.”

This is a generalisation and I know from personal experience that some nurses joined because they saw it as a relatively secure and easy profession. That may not have happened for them but I know some who admit that’s why they joined.

“The Tories are running it (the NHS) into the ground so they can sell it off to their mates”

This is an opinion not a proven fact.


“Spending billions outsourcing treatment that could be done within a properly funded NHS.

Again an opinion, more funding does not resolve, for example, the way Consultants prefer to work or, the lack of qualified staff available to recruit, both of which I believe contribute to the problems.

“They don’t want a publicly funded healthcare system. They have other ideas.”

Again, not a proven fact and denied by the Tories.

“Health and social care cuts have been linked to 120,000 excess deaths in England.”

The statement itself may be correct in that they have been linked but by whom and on what firm evidence?

“Our NHS is dear to every one of us”.

This is a generalization and seems to contradict the statements that the Tories are trying to sell off the NHS.


“We’ll recruit the doctors and nurses it needs.”

My experience is that they are not available to the levels required so it is a promise that I don’t believe that can be kept even if the funding is made available.


It seems to me that "telling the truth" does not tell the story.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeremy Corbyn
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:50 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
Labour gets practically full marks for accuracy of its political broadcast.

Experts award 97% after fact check.


Imagine if all parties TOLD the truth.



CLAIM

Health and social care cuts have been linked to 120,000 excess deaths in England.

FACT 2017 BMJ study shows correlation between austerity and excess deaths.

CLAIM

life expectancy is going backwards in the poorest areas.

FACT Since 2011, the rise in female life expectancy has stalled in the 3rd, 4th and 5th most deprived deciles and has reversed in the two most deprived deciles (Lancet 2018)

CLAIM
Teenage suicides have nearly doubled since 2010

FACT Suicides among teenagers have risen by 66% 2010 to 2017, from 112 to 187 anf the trend has been rising since 2010.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeremy Corbyn
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:18 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
Labour gets practically full marks for accuracy of its political broadcast.

Experts award 97% after fact check.


Imagine if all parties TOLD the truth.



CLAIM

Health and social care cuts have been linked to 120,000 excess deaths in England.

FACT 2017 BMJ study shows correlation between austerity and excess deaths.

CLAIM

life expectancy is going backwards in the poorest areas.

FACT Since 2011, the rise in female life expectancy has stalled in the 3rd, 4th and 5th most deprived deciles and has reversed in the two most deprived deciles (Lancet 2018)

CLAIM
Teenage suicides have nearly doubled since 2010

FACT Suicides among teenagers have risen by 66% 2010 to 2017, from 112 to 187 anf the trend has been rising since 2010.



Fact: Teenage suicides have risen with a direct correlation to the numbers of teenagers joining the Labour Party.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeremy Corbyn
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:54 am 
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CLAIM

Privatisation has doubled under the Tories....to.....£9bn


FACT

Expenditure on private providers has increased from £4b in 2009/10 to £9b in 2016/17 (House of Commons).
As a proportion of RDEL this has increased from 4% to 7.7% (IPPR)

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 Post subject: Re: Jeremy Corbyn
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:53 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
Labour gets practically full marks for accuracy of its political broadcast.

Experts award 97% after fact check.


Imagine if all parties TOLD the truth.



CLAIM

Health and social care cuts have been linked to 120,000 excess deaths in England.

FACT 2017 BMJ study shows correlation between austerity and excess deaths.

CLAIM

life expectancy is going backwards in the poorest areas.

FACT Since 2011, the rise in female life expectancy has stalled in the 3rd, 4th and 5th most deprived deciles and has reversed in the two most deprived deciles (Lancet 2018)

CLAIM
Teenage suicides have nearly doubled since 2010

FACT Suicides among teenagers have risen by 66% 2010 to 2017, from 112 to 187 anf the trend has been rising since 2010.


Quote from BMJ Study 2017

"This is an observational study so no firm conclusions can be drawn about cause and effect"

This is the specific danger I am concerned about - you draw the conclusion on the basis of what you want it to be. What we cannot know is whether the death figure would have been any different had more money been thrown at social care and, given that the study suggests that an additional £6.25 billion per year would be required for social care, what impact the diversion of that money away from other areas may have had on death rates elsewhere, deprivation and unemployment from high taxation etc. The Conservative were voted in at the time the recession hit. If they had tried to spend their way out of it there are those who sincerely believe that we may be in a far worse position now with high inflation, unemployment and such like impacting most on the poorest and most deprived.


Every time you are quoting facts and using since 2010 to claim that the figures are the result of the Tories policies. I say again that none of those facts have demonstrated a cause and effect relationship.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeremy Corbyn
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:29 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
CLAIM

Privatisation has doubled under the Tories....to.....£9bn


FACT

Expenditure on private providers has increased from £4b in 2009/10 to £9b in 2016/17 (House of Commons).
As a proportion of RDEL this has increased from 4% to 7.7% (IPPR)


The CLAIM made by the party political broadcast was that the Tories want to sell off the NHS - these figures don't prove that. Spending on the NHS increased from £102b to £121b between 2009/10 and 2016/17. Also, don't forget it was the last Labour government who really pushed for and developed the outsourcing of NHS services to private providers.

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