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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:16 pm 
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suiging wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
davejonesears wrote:
They have been banging on about this for 3 years and its made no change to opinion ..why do they and the BBC think another 6 months will make any difference.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/48465791


Why do you think three years on with more and more information available most people still retain their initial thoughts and hardly ever change their votes?


In the late 19th Century I'm sure folk said the same, just different parties.


People in past centuries lacked education and access to knowledge.

Todays generations just lack the will to think or research for themselves.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:01 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
[
Todays generations just lack the will to think or research for themselves.


Once again decrying those who you profess to be most concerned about. As I've said previously, people tend to rely on the evidence that reinforces their beliefs. You've consistently retained your belief in Labour during that time by relying on the evidence that supports your view. There is plenty of contrary evidence too but you prefer not to believe or to ignore that. It's nothing to do with today's generations not being willing to think or research.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:39 pm 
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Depressing KK that you seem to think the younger generations are unable and/or unwilling to think or research for themselves.

In my experience, the young are the very people who ARE doing the thinking, and refusing to accept the world as it is being portrayed as 'inevitable'.

Yes - some young people think the world of social media and 'reality TV' and other mindless things are important, but the older folk probably engaged with a host of meaningless drivel on the TV in the 1960s/70s.

Many young people got behind the Corbyn agenda because there is an attractive rhetoric (that most older folk recognise breaks down when trying to convert to reality), and presumably you regard those as the 'thinking young'. Many of them have already abandoned him, seeing through it, and have instead thrown their weight behind 'single issues' that are important to them.

My worry is that the 'single issue' politics and pressure groups mean that a very small, very vociferous minority get all the media attention.

Remember the Greenham Common women? Greenpeace? Youngsters are attracted to an ideal. That is why we have to beware of young zealots. (Seen the guy leading then protest outside the school in Brum? No children at the school, but a cause to believe in. They become very very dangerous).

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:32 pm 
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SilverstoneWolf wrote:
Depressing KK that you seem to think the younger generations are unable and/or unwilling to think or research for themselves.

In my experience, the young are the very people who ARE doing the thinking, and refusing to accept the world as it is being portrayed as 'inevitable'.

Yes - some young people think the world of social media and 'reality TV' and other mindless things are important, but the older folk probably engaged with a host of meaningless drivel on the TV in the 1960s/70s.

Many young people got behind the Corbyn agenda because there is an attractive rhetoric (that most older folk recognise breaks down when trying to convert to reality), and presumably you regard those as the 'thinking young'. Many of them have already abandoned him, seeing through it, and have instead thrown their weight behind 'single issues' that are important to them.

My worry is that the 'single issue' politics and pressure groups mean that a very small, very vociferous minority get all the media attention.

Remember the Greenham Common women? Greenpeace? Youngsters are attracted to an ideal. That is why we have to beware of young zealots. (Seen the guy leading then protest outside the school in Brum? No children at the school, but a cause to believe in. They become very very dangerous).


I concur.

The minority with the loudest voices seem to dictating to everyone else.

Quite why it has taken the council and the police so long to sort out the issue at that Primary school is frankly disgraceful.

It will end up fostering the very reaction they are trying to avoid.


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 Post Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:29 pm 
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I didn't say Younger generations, I said ALL Generations.

Its my opinion that a large number of the English population do very little research into things such as politics.
Which enables untrustworthy folk the opportunity to say one thing then do another. With the media not holding them accountable.

Farage being the most striking example, he only has to shout Brexit to gain these peoples votes.

Research his parties policies.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:46 am 
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davejonesears wrote:
SilverstoneWolf wrote:
Depressing KK that you seem to think the younger generations are unable and/or unwilling to think or research for themselves.

In my experience, the young are the very people who ARE doing the thinking, and refusing to accept the world as it is being portrayed as 'inevitable'.

Yes - some young people think the world of social media and 'reality TV' and other mindless things are important, but the older folk probably engaged with a host of meaningless drivel on the TV in the 1960s/70s.

Many young people got behind the Corbyn agenda because there is an attractive rhetoric (that most older folk recognise breaks down when trying to convert to reality), and presumably you regard those as the 'thinking young'. Many of them have already abandoned him, seeing through it, and have instead thrown their weight behind 'single issues' that are important to them.

My worry is that the 'single issue' politics and pressure groups mean that a very small, very vociferous minority get all the media attention.

Remember the Greenham Common women? Greenpeace? Youngsters are attracted to an ideal. That is why we have to beware of young zealots. (Seen the guy leading then protest outside the school in Brum? No children at the school, but a cause to believe in. They become very very dangerous).


I concur.

The minority with the loudest voices seem to dictating to everyone else.

Quite why it has taken the council and the police so long to sort out the issue at that Primary school is frankly disgraceful.

It will end up fostering the very reaction they are trying to avoid.


Empty vessels make the most noise.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:04 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
I didn't say Younger generations, I said ALL Generations.

Its my opinion that a large number of the English population do very little research into things such as politics.
Which enables untrustworthy folk the opportunity to say one thing then do another. With the media not holding them accountable.

Farage being the most striking example, he only has to shout Brexit to gain these peoples votes.

Research his parties policies.



I try not to but it's hard. KK, please read your own post and think about Corbyn and crew.

They propose to take back, at below market value, utilities such as water, an industry which has invested billions since privatisation, meaning less burts pipes, less hose pipe bans, and a promise over the next few years to invest a further 120 billion. The people who now actually own it, are in the main pension funds. And the majority of those Public Sector pensions. The very core support they purport to represent, the same people who will lose millions off the value of their hard earned retirement for what ? A vague, hollow promise of maybe 200 pounds a year of their average water bill? How will Corbyn invest the promised 120 billion into just one of his proposed socialist utilities ? Who will pay ? Investment/investers ? Well .....NO !!!! Who in their right minds would invest in an industry which has been stolen at less than market value ? Who would risk their money in any project that will bleed money to further the communist cause, managed for the few at the cost to the many ? The answer, only those promised their turn at the trough at the cost to the public.

Then we have their land grab and proposals to tax gardens FFS. The largest gardens in my home village belong to the ex-council houses, bought and lovingly cared for by their long term residents. Residents who are not rich. Residents who will suffer at the hands of Islington millionaires and false landed gentry like Corbyn, who claims he comes from Telford, a lie made because he wants to be woke.

Anti-Semitic, marxists fools are only supported by the starry eyed hippy, run back to Mommy when it gets hard brigade, or those blinded by greed. Those that think they can become commissars and take their share of wealth without working for it. The Soviet Union, China, Venezuela, Cuba, the list is endless. Those who wish to see the UK added to the list are either delude, stupid, or inherently evil.

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 Post Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:12 am 
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I see Farage got the heads up on the likely result last night and was seen to slunk out of a side door.

Tosser.

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 Post Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:17 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
I see Farage got the heads up on the likely result last night and was seen to slunk out of a side door.

Tosser.


Where was Corbyn, or any one of his cabal ?

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 Post Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:05 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
I see Farage got the heads up on the likely result last night and was seen to slunk out of a side door.

Tosser.


It was a close one - & was a Labour stronghold after all.
I'm amazed it was so close tbh given that the Brexit Party has only been around a few weeks.
You can see that the existing parties still carry a gravitas that their recent performances do not warrant, however the reluctance for many to switch when it comes to a GE is apparent- no surprise there.

I think both Labour and Tories should be mightily relieved more than crow about the result, it should not be taken as a support of their policies on Brexit- far from it!

if the Brexit Party had won the cat really would have been amongst the pigeons, they didn't ,so its not, well ,no more than previously.

Funnily enough it could be argued that if the Tories had been stronger on Brexit , they may have actually won ...but lets not get into that discussion , again , they didn't.

In the end it is only the result that matters , but 9801 constituents is still a lot of people that need to be 'represented' by this MP....


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 Post Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:42 am 
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davejonesears wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
I see Farage got the heads up on the likely result last night and was seen to slunk out of a side door.

Tosser.


It was a close one - & was a Labour stronghold after all.
I'm amazed it was so close tbh given that the Brexit Party has only been around a few weeks.
You can see that the existing parties still carry a gravitas that their recent performances do not warrant, however the reluctance for many to switch when it comes to a GE is apparent- no surprise there.

I think both Labour and Tories should be mightily relieved more than crow about the result, it should not be taken as a support of their policies on Brexit- far from it!

if the Brexit Party had won the cat really would have been amongst the pigeons, they didn't ,so its not, well ,no more than previously.

Funnily enough it could be argued that if the Tories had been stronger on Brexit , they may have actually won ...but lets not get into that discussion , again , they didn't.

In the end it is only the result that matters , but 9801 constituents is still a lot of people that need to be 'represented' by this MP....


I wonder if we'll see calls for a "People's Vote", as Labour's majority surely should have been bigger ?

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 Post Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:34 am 
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It was a Labour gain at the last General Election, also with a 60 per cent referendum result voting out.

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 Post Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:03 pm 
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To be fair, as KK says - it was a Labour gain at last election so to describe it as a 'Labour stronghold' is just false.

I am relieved Brexit lost, not because I oppose Brexit, but because I fear for democracy if we start electing people on a single issue basis. The Brexit party has no prospectus and no policies. How could we vote for someone with unknown approaches to health, education, foreign policy, the environment....

Yes - of course Brexit is important, but it is NOT the ONLY issue facing the country.

Hopefully the support they got (which seems MAINLY have come from the Tories) will re-inforce in the minds of the Tory leadership hopefuls the notion that they MUST resolve this mess and soon. Failure to do so will mean a general election and huge instability for the country.

A General Election will solve nothing. What will the Labour manifesto say? What will the Tory manifesto say? If they both are unequivocal then their MPs and candidates will have a HUGE problem: do they stand on a policy they do not believe in?

I suspect the only positive would be that whatever their beliefs, they would HAVE to vote for the policy espoused in the manifesto.

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 Post Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:35 pm 
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sorry yes - a slight miscommunication, I meant that the majority had been reduced significantly (although not as much % wise as the Tories of course!).

I hadn't looked at previous voting tendencies, so apologies for that.

But as for the rest of your post Silverstone- yes I agree with it's essence, it sort of ties in to my feelings.

However the fact that nearly 10k voters ignored that fact and voted for the Brexit Party must still be very worrying for both Labour and Tories and again highlights shows the right royal fk up they have both made of the last 2-3 years.

Its a pity that the Brexit Party didn't either trounce it or even get trounced as at least that would have swayed some middle of the road minds, as it is both parties can - and most importantly will - carry on arguing between themselves.

Will this force the Torys down a more harder Brexit path or not , who knows...some may say who cares.


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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:19 pm 
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Think of East Germany before you get lulled into the fantasy of no-deal

We would be an outsider looking in (as East Germany and other Soviet bloc nations were during the Cold War)

You might not recognise the connection but those in favour of a no-deal Brexit have quite a lot in common with the leaders of the former German Democratic Republic. Like the Soviet satellite, they’re endangering our relations with the rest of the world while threatening to split our own country in two.

No-dealers seem to think the UK can walk away from existing international arrangements with little in the way of what might be described as collateral damage. “Don’t worry”, they say, “we can simply adopt WTO rules,” as if countries elsewhere in the world have done exactly that. They mostly haven’t. World Trade Organisation rules are mainly for those who can’t do any better: they betray a total lack of international ambition.

Most other nations have trade agreements that extend far beyond what is in WTO rules, covering standards, regulations, labour conditions and much else. On day one of a no-deal Brexit, the UK would be excluded from these arrangements, both with the EU and pretty much everyone else (to date, the UK has signed only 10 post-EU “continuity” trade agreements, from Switzerland through to that major economic heavyweight the Faroe Islands). We would, in effect, be an outsider looking in (as East Germany and other Soviet bloc countries were during the Cold War). It would not be a happy experience. The EU would likely apply tariffs on imports from the UK. And while we could slash tariffs on imported products from all over the world in a bid to benefit British consumers, cheaper imports might leave British workers without jobs.

The main East German issue, however, is borders. One of the biggest problems that undermined Theresa May’s proposed deal is the so-called Irish backstop. No one wants a border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. The UK, however, wants to leave the single market while the EU wants to preserve the market’s integrity. It’s a wish list fraught with inconsistency.

There’s been a lot of hokum expressed regarding a “technological” solution to the Irish border question — in which goods that originate outside the EU will be “tracked” to limit the threat of smuggling into the single market. For the foreseeable future, however, that technology is just a pipe dream. Hence the Irish backstop. The EU’s idea is to protect the integrity of the single market by keeping the UK in a customs union until and unless a technological solution is forthcoming. Doing so, however, will curtail our freedom to negotiate trade deals with countries elsewhere. It’s why many on the Tory Right are so relaxed about a no-deal arrangement.

Combining an open border with different economic systems is, however, a recipe for disaster. To understand why, it’s worth reflecting on the history of East Germany. In 1949, Germany politically split in two: in the west, the Federal Republic of Germany and, in the east, the German Democratic Republic. Berlin, surrounded by the GDR, also split.

For a while it was relatively easy for Germans on either side to saunter across the border. Not surprisingly, many East Germans had no real enthusiasm for the Soviet nirvana they inhabited, preferring the bright lights of the “decadent” West. Voting with their feet, East Germany began to suffer a brain drain. By the beginning of the Sixties, more than 3.5 million East Germans had fled, with the vast majority crossing the imaginary border between East and West Berlin. The East Germans decided to stop the flow. They called it the Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart. The Berlin Wall — as everyone else knows it — became the ultimate symbol of the Cold War.

Using the German analogy, let’s think about the consequences of no-deal. Having left the EU and opted for WTO rules, goods from all over the world with potentially dubious providence could enter the UK. With the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic still open — everyone wants to uphold the Good Friday Agreement — many of those goods could flood across the Irish frontier. Indeed, overseas companies seeking an opportunity to sell into the EU market — in some cases, illicitly — would simply build large warehouses north of the border. Northern Ireland would become an enormous “import/export” depot, from Brussels’ perspective an unwelcome conduit between the rest of the world and the single market. In the absence of unicorn technologies, this situation would surely be unsustainable. A border would eventually have to be created. One option would be in the middle of the Irish Sea, cutting off Northern Ireland from the British mainland, thus increasing the chances of eventual Irish unification (unthinkable, from a British perspective). Another would be between the British Isles and the Continent, effectively separating the Republic from the rest of the single market (unthinkable from a Irish and European perspective). A third — the most likely — would be between Northern Ireland and the Republic. The Good Friday Agreement would then be in tatters.

Those who defend no-deal typically do so by trying to undermine the views of everybody else. The Confederation of British Industry is, apparently, a hotbed of “vested interests”. Union leaders who recognise the dangers associated with no-deal are no more than dinosaurs from the Seventies. City of London financiers who fear a world in which Britain can no longer be a driving force behind the creation of an eventual single market in European financial services are regarded as scaremongers. Even Parliament is dismissed, apparently full of fifth columnists with no intention of heeding the “will of the people”.

It is, of course, the classic response of populists, focusing on the alleged hidden agendas of everyone else in a bid to turn the spotlight away from their own dubious arguments. In reality, no-deal is likely to seriously damage the fabric of the economy and our relations with our neighbours (and, lest we forget, our closest allies). If so, perhaps Boris Johnson’s desire to “f*ck business” should be taken seriously. And why not? It worked so well for the East Germans.

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comm ... 58111.html

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:50 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
Think of East Germany before you get lulled into the fantasy of no-deal

We would be an outsider looking in (as East Germany and other Soviet bloc nations were during the Cold War)

You might not recognise the connection but those in favour of a no-deal Brexit have quite a lot in common with the leaders of the former German Democratic Republic. Like the Soviet satellite, they’re endangering our relations with the rest of the world while threatening to split our own country in two.

No-dealers seem to think the UK can walk away from existing international arrangements with little in the way of what might be described as collateral damage. “Don’t worry”, they say, “we can simply adopt WTO rules,” as if countries elsewhere in the world have done exactly that. They mostly haven’t. World Trade Organisation rules are mainly for those who can’t do any better: they betray a total lack of international ambition.

Most other nations have trade agreements that extend far beyond what is in WTO rules, covering standards, regulations, labour conditions and much else. On day one of a no-deal Brexit, the UK would be excluded from these arrangements, both with the EU and pretty much everyone else (to date, the UK has signed only 10 post-EU “continuity” trade agreements, from Switzerland through to that major economic heavyweight the Faroe Islands). We would, in effect, be an outsider looking in (as East Germany and other Soviet bloc countries were during the Cold War). It would not be a happy experience. The EU would likely apply tariffs on imports from the UK. And while we could slash tariffs on imported products from all over the world in a bid to benefit British consumers, cheaper imports might leave British workers without jobs.

The main East German issue, however, is borders. One of the biggest problems that undermined Theresa May’s proposed deal is the so-called Irish backstop. No one wants a border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. The UK, however, wants to leave the single market while the EU wants to preserve the market’s integrity. It’s a wish list fraught with inconsistency.

There’s been a lot of hokum expressed regarding a “technological” solution to the Irish border question — in which goods that originate outside the EU will be “tracked” to limit the threat of smuggling into the single market. For the foreseeable future, however, that technology is just a pipe dream. Hence the Irish backstop. The EU’s idea is to protect the integrity of the single market by keeping the UK in a customs union until and unless a technological solution is forthcoming. Doing so, however, will curtail our freedom to negotiate trade deals with countries elsewhere. It’s why many on the Tory Right are so relaxed about a no-deal arrangement.

Combining an open border with different economic systems is, however, a recipe for disaster. To understand why, it’s worth reflecting on the history of East Germany. In 1949, Germany politically split in two: in the west, the Federal Republic of Germany and, in the east, the German Democratic Republic. Berlin, surrounded by the GDR, also split.

For a while it was relatively easy for Germans on either side to saunter across the border. Not surprisingly, many East Germans had no real enthusiasm for the Soviet nirvana they inhabited, preferring the bright lights of the “decadent” West. Voting with their feet, East Germany began to suffer a brain drain. By the beginning of the Sixties, more than 3.5 million East Germans had fled, with the vast majority crossing the imaginary border between East and West Berlin. The East Germans decided to stop the flow. They called it the Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart. The Berlin Wall — as everyone else knows it — became the ultimate symbol of the Cold War.

Using the German analogy, let’s think about the consequences of no-deal. Having left the EU and opted for WTO rules, goods from all over the world with potentially dubious providence could enter the UK. With the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic still open — everyone wants to uphold the Good Friday Agreement — many of those goods could flood across the Irish frontier. Indeed, overseas companies seeking an opportunity to sell into the EU market — in some cases, illicitly — would simply build large warehouses north of the border. Northern Ireland would become an enormous “import/export” depot, from Brussels’ perspective an unwelcome conduit between the rest of the world and the single market. In the absence of unicorn technologies, this situation would surely be unsustainable. A border would eventually have to be created. One option would be in the middle of the Irish Sea, cutting off Northern Ireland from the British mainland, thus increasing the chances of eventual Irish unification (unthinkable, from a British perspective). Another would be between the British Isles and the Continent, effectively separating the Republic from the rest of the single market (unthinkable from a Irish and European perspective). A third — the most likely — would be between Northern Ireland and the Republic. The Good Friday Agreement would then be in tatters.

Those who defend no-deal typically do so by trying to undermine the views of everybody else. The Confederation of British Industry is, apparently, a hotbed of “vested interests”. Union leaders who recognise the dangers associated with no-deal are no more than dinosaurs from the Seventies. City of London financiers who fear a world in which Britain can no longer be a driving force behind the creation of an eventual single market in European financial services are regarded as scaremongers. Even Parliament is dismissed, apparently full of fifth columnists with no intention of heeding the “will of the people”.

It is, of course, the classic response of populists, focusing on the alleged hidden agendas of everyone else in a bid to turn the spotlight away from their own dubious arguments. In reality, no-deal is likely to seriously damage the fabric of the economy and our relations with our neighbours (and, lest we forgeo, our closest allies). If so, perhaps Boris Johnson’s desire to “f*ck business” should be taken seriously. And why not? It worked so well for the East Germans.

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comm ... 58111.html


So you compare those that advocate coming out of the EU as akin to East Germany and the Soviet State...when if anything its the EU that has been likened to a soviet type model.

btw there was a report produced in 2017 that stated a technology based border was possible - if not for all then for the majority of trade, as long as the will was there...
Why has this not been made common knowledge...well it was produced by the EU themselves, so go figure.

It a pity you didn't highlight all of these issues prior to the 2016 referendum isn't it...but then again most of is just soundbite crap so its probably a good job you didn't, oh and of course lest we forget you were a Leaver at that point.


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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:02 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
Think of East Germany before you get lulled into the fantasy of no-deal

We would be an outsider looking in (as East Germany and other Soviet bloc nations were during the Cold War)

You might not recognise the connection but those in favour of a no-deal Brexit have quite a lot in common with the leaders of the former German Democratic Republic. Like the Soviet satellite, they’re endangering our relations with the rest of the world while threatening to split our own country in two.

No-dealers seem to think the UK can walk away from existing international arrangements with little in the way of what might be described as collateral damage. “Don’t worry”, they say, “we can simply adopt WTO rules,” as if countries elsewhere in the world have done exactly that. They mostly haven’t. World Trade Organisation rules are mainly for those who can’t do any better: they betray a total lack of international ambition.

Most other nations have trade agreements that extend far beyond what is in WTO rules, covering standards, regulations, labour conditions and much else. On day one of a no-deal Brexit, the UK would be excluded from these arrangements, both with the EU and pretty much everyone else (to date, the UK has signed only 10 post-EU “continuity” trade agreements, from Switzerland through to that major economic heavyweight the Faroe Islands). We would, in effect, be an outsider looking in (as East Germany and other Soviet bloc countries were during the Cold War). It would not be a happy experience. The EU would likely apply tariffs on imports from the UK. And while we could slash tariffs on imported products from all over the world in a bid to benefit British consumers, cheaper imports might leave British workers without jobs.

The main East German issue, however, is borders. One of the biggest problems that undermined Theresa May’s proposed deal is the so-called Irish backstop. No one wants a border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. The UK, however, wants to leave the single market while the EU wants to preserve the market’s integrity. It’s a wish list fraught with inconsistency.

There’s been a lot of hokum expressed regarding a “technological” solution to the Irish border question — in which goods that originate outside the EU will be “tracked” to limit the threat of smuggling into the single market. For the foreseeable future, however, that technology is just a pipe dream. Hence the Irish backstop. The EU’s idea is to protect the integrity of the single market by keeping the UK in a customs union until and unless a technological solution is forthcoming. Doing so, however, will curtail our freedom to negotiate trade deals with countries elsewhere. It’s why many on the Tory Right are so relaxed about a no-deal arrangement.

Combining an open border with different economic systems is, however, a recipe for disaster. To understand why, it’s worth reflecting on the history of East Germany. In 1949, Germany politically split in two: in the west, the Federal Republic of Germany and, in the east, the German Democratic Republic. Berlin, surrounded by the GDR, also split.

For a while it was relatively easy for Germans on either side to saunter across the border. Not surprisingly, many East Germans had no real enthusiasm for the Soviet nirvana they inhabited, preferring the bright lights of the “decadent” West. Voting with their feet, East Germany began to suffer a brain drain. By the beginning of the Sixties, more than 3.5 million East Germans had fled, with the vast majority crossing the imaginary border between East and West Berlin. The East Germans decided to stop the flow. They called it the Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart. The Berlin Wall — as everyone else knows it — became the ultimate symbol of the Cold War.

Using the German analogy, let’s think about the consequences of no-deal. Having left the EU and opted for WTO rules, goods from all over the world with potentially dubious providence could enter the UK. With the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic still open — everyone wants to uphold the Good Friday Agreement — many of those goods could flood across the Irish frontier. Indeed, overseas companies seeking an opportunity to sell into the EU market — in some cases, illicitly — would simply build large warehouses north of the border. Northern Ireland would become an enormous “import/export” depot, from Brussels’ perspective an unwelcome conduit between the rest of the world and the single market. In the absence of unicorn technologies, this situation would surely be unsustainable. A border would eventually have to be created. One option would be in the middle of the Irish Sea, cutting off Northern Ireland from the British mainland, thus increasing the chances of eventual Irish unification (unthinkable, from a British perspective). Another would be between the British Isles and the Continent, effectively separating the Republic from the rest of the single market (unthinkable from a Irish and European perspective). A third — the most likely — would be between Northern Ireland and the Republic. The Good Friday Agreement would then be in tatters.

Those who defend no-deal typically do so by trying to undermine the views of everybody else. The Confederation of British Industry is, apparently, a hotbed of “vested interests”. Union leaders who recognise the dangers associated with no-deal are no more than dinosaurs from the Seventies. City of London financiers who fear a world in which Britain can no longer be a driving force behind the creation of an eventual single market in European financial services are regarded as scaremongers. Even Parliament is dismissed, apparently full of fifth columnists with no intention of heeding the “will of the people”.

It is, of course, the classic response of populists, focusing on the alleged hidden agendas of everyone else in a bid to turn the spotlight away from their own dubious arguments. In reality, no-deal is likely to seriously damage the fabric of the economy and our relations with our neighbours (and, lest we forget, our closest allies). If so, perhaps Boris Johnson’s desire to “f*ck business” should be taken seriously. And why not? It worked so well for the East Germans.

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comm ... 58111.html


Christ that must have took you ages to write that knocker, fair play.

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 Post Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:19 pm 
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I only hope all those actual Labour voters who voted leave and still want to leave vote for the Brexit Party at the next GE.

Oh & Letwin is a duplicitous as they come, in 2012 he was apparently considering the option of leaving the EU altogether, but in 2016 after the referendum May put him charge of the Brexit Unit...and the rest ..well go figure.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48598760


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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:41 am 
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https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-06- ... ds-unicorn

The EU is too ideological and they sought too many concessions from a weak negotiator in May. The question is how much they will backpedal or face the prospect of a no deal exit.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:20 pm 
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davejonesears wrote:
I only hope all those actual Labour voters who voted leave and still want to leave vote for the Brexit Party at the next GE.

Oh & Letwin is a duplicitous as they come, in 2012 he was apparently considering the option of leaving the EU altogether, but in 2016 after the referendum May put him charge of the Brexit Unit...and the rest ..well go figure.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48598760


Lewin also voted with Labour today - in effect joining those who want to frustrate Brexit from happening at all. Strange that 10 Tories did so ... but 8 Labour & 2 ex-Labour voted with the government....

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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:05 pm 
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As I have said on here many times -and right from the outset- Brexit was a bad idea from day one ,the Brexit camapaign was grossly misleading and we are likely to be worse off as a result. The result was significantly a protest vote against many things , including perceived inequality, immigration and the metropolitan elite. The referendum was called for the benefit of the Tory party ,not the country.

That said, I now think we have to leave. The whole Brexit process is so corrosive to our way of life, it is absorbing endless amounts of time energy and money and we are getting nowhere.

We should sign the withdrawal agreement.It actually gives us Brexit in the things that matter to most people-control of immigration (for what that is really worth when we haven't got enough doctors and nurses as it is),exit from the fisheries policy, continued intelligence sharing and a solution to Northern Ireland. It also gives us a reasonable exit from a business perspective.

Because it wasn't Brexit red in tooth and claw the madmen in the ERG damned it , as did the DUP and Labour ,the latter significantly from an opportunistic viewpoint of hoping it would bring down the government and maximise their chances of an election win. I accept the Remain parties also did in the opportunistic hope of a second referendum. It had no advocate of any standing ,given Theresa May completed lacked credibility by the time it came round.And she handled the process badly by failing to get people onside as it was progressing .

The issue that everyone went on about-the backstop.Do you think that anyone outside the Brexit extremists and the Unionist fanatics gives a damn about the backstop if it meant the Brexit misery ended and we could all get on with something more worthwhile? I suspect the majority of the Northern Irish people wouldn't be that bothered as they could well end up economically advantaged by it -and a majority in Ulster wanted to Remain anyway.

I have 30 years experience of negotiating complicated agreements often involving parties with massively opposing views and little if any goodwill or trust. Eventually you just have to sign up and move on. It happened to me once-I remember signing and thinking this is so bloody unreasonable. It just needed to be done to bring and end to the deal process which was getting in the way of everything else. We signed.We moved on. It worked out, though it was really hard. For all the unfairness I don't regret it and I have seen the same thing happen for other people many many times since.

The deal we deserve for all this nonsense is on the table.

If I can accept it as a Remainer who thinks it is all a waste of time -you Brexit guys should too.

Sign and move on.


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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:40 pm 
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Enlightening post Raggedwolf. I remember once in a difficult situation a friend suggested to me that it was pride not principle that was preventing us moving forward. Self realisation hit me and it was amazing how quickly we were able to reach a solution and move on after that.

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 Post Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:43 am 
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raggedwolf wrote:
As I have said on here many times -and right from the outset- Brexit was a bad idea from day one ,the Brexit camapaign was grossly misleading and we are likely to be worse off as a result. The result was significantly a protest vote against many things , including perceived inequality, immigration and the metropolitan elite. The referendum was called for the benefit of the Tory party ,not the country.

That said, I now think we have to leave. The whole Brexit process is so corrosive to our way of life, it is absorbing endless amounts of time energy and money and we are getting nowhere.

We should sign the withdrawal agreement.It actually gives us Brexit in the things that matter to most people-control of immigration (for what that is really worth when we haven't got enough doctors and nurses as it is),exit from the fisheries policy, continued intelligence sharing and a solution to Northern Ireland. It also gives us a reasonable exit from a business perspective.

Because it wasn't Brexit red in tooth and claw the madmen in the ERG damned it , as did the DUP and Labour ,the latter significantly from an opportunistic viewpoint of hoping it would bring down the government and maximise their chances of an election win. I accept the Remain parties also did in the opportunistic hope of a second referendum. It had no advocate of any standing ,given Theresa May completed lacked credibility by the time it came round.And she handled the process badly by failing to get people onside as it was progressing .

The issue that everyone went on about-the backstop.Do you think that anyone outside the Brexit extremists and the Unionist fanatics gives a damn about the backstop if it meant the Brexit misery ended and we could all get on with something more worthwhile? I suspect the majority of the Northern Irish people wouldn't be that bothered as they could well end up economically advantaged by it -and a majority in Ulster wanted to Remain anyway.

I have 30 years experience of negotiating complicated agreements often involving parties with massively opposing views and little if any goodwill or trust. Eventually you just have to sign up and move on. It happened to me once-I remember signing and thinking this is so bloody unreasonable. It just needed to be done to bring and end to the deal process which was getting in the way of everything else. We signed.We moved on. It worked out, though it was really hard. For all the unfairness I don't regret it and I have seen the same thing happen for other people many many times since.

The deal we deserve for all this nonsense is on the table.

If I can accept it as a Remainer who thinks it is all a waste of time -you Brexit guys should too.

Sign and move on.


And yet we find the only contender for the Tory leadership not promising pie in the sky is Rory Stewart.
So much for facts and reason when you can get away with bluster.

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 Post Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:02 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:

And yet we find the only contender for the Tory leadership not promising pie in the sky is Rory Stewart.
So much for facts and reason when you can get away with bluster.


If you want to know about Bluster and self promotion you need look no further than bloody Rory-I saved Afghanistan single-handedly - Stewart...did you know they call him Florence of Belgravia btw?

I have repeatedly highlighted how he is the epitome of all that's wrong with the class system, the very essence of all you purport to abhor Knocker and you never explain why you choose to ignore that ...still he panders to your remainist propaganda I suppose..however belated that may be.

He is in my opinion nowt but a privileged twat.


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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:52 am 
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davejonesears wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:

And yet we find the only contender for the Tory leadership not promising pie in the sky is Rory Stewart.
So much for facts and reason when you can get away with bluster.


If you want to know about Bluster and self promotion you need look no further than bloody Rory-I saved Afghanistan single-handedly - Stewart...did you know they call him Florence of Belgravia btw?

I have repeatedly highlighted how he is the epitome of all that's wrong with the class system, the very essence of all you purport to abhor Knocker and you never explain why you choose to ignore that ...still he panders to your remainist propaganda I suppose..however belated that may be.

He is in my opinion nowt but a privileged twat.


A dear pal of mine has just retired from the Mod. Little Rory's personal safety became an issue in the Middle East, and the threats were not from the side you would d expect. Hatred for the arrogant twat, doesn't come close.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:31 am 
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No we don't owe the EU any money, the House of Lords examined the question legally and said no.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/06/d ... to-the-eu/

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:59 am 
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davejonesears wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:

And yet we find the only contender for the Tory leadership not promising pie in the sky is Rory Stewart.
So much for facts and reason when you can get away with bluster.


If you want to know about Bluster and self promotion you need look no further than bloody Rory-I saved Afghanistan single-handedly - Stewart...did you know they call him Florence of Belgravia btw?

I have repeatedly highlighted how he is the epitome of all that's wrong with the class system, the very essence of all you purport to abhor Knocker and you never explain why you choose to ignore that ...still he panders to your remainist propaganda I suppose..however belated that may be.

He is in my opinion nowt but a privileged twat.


Away from the character assassination, Rory Stewart is the only contender thus far to be forthcoming with an actual plan.
The EU will not renegotiate on the agreed May deal, what these other Tories are doing is dangerous for the country.
NO DEAL = Fucked up country.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:32 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
davejonesears wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:

And yet we find the only contender for the Tory leadership not promising pie in the sky is Rory Stewart.
So much for facts and reason when you can get away with bluster.


If you want to know about Bluster and self promotion you need look no further than bloody Rory-I saved Afghanistan single-handedly - Stewart...did you know they call him Florence of Belgravia btw?

I have repeatedly highlighted how he is the epitome of all that's wrong with the class system, the very essence of all you purport to abhor Knocker and you never explain why you choose to ignore that ...still he panders to your remainist propaganda I suppose..however belated that may be.

He is in my opinion nowt but a privileged twat.


Away from the character assassination, Rory Stewart is the only contender thus far to be forthcoming with an actual plan.
The EU will not renegotiate on the agreed May deal, what these other Tories are doing is dangerous for the country.
NO DEAL = Fucked up country.


What would a Corbyn led Government do if they were in power KK ?

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:08 pm 
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And yet we find the only contender for the Tory leadership not promising pie in the sky is Rory Stewart.
So much for facts and reason when you can get away with bluster.[/quote]

If you want to know about Bluster and self promotion you need look no further than bloody Rory-I saved Afghanistan single-handedly - Stewart...did you know they call him Florence of Belgravia btw?

I have repeatedly highlighted how he is the epitome of all that's wrong with the class system, the very essence of all you purport to abhor Knocker and you never explain why you choose to ignore that ...still he panders to your remainist propaganda I suppose..however belated that may be.

He is in my opinion nowt but a privileged twat.[/quote]

Away from the character assassination, Rory Stewart is the only contender thus far to be forthcoming with an actual plan.
The EU will not renegotiate on the agreed May deal, what these other Tories are doing is dangerous for the country.
NO DEAL = Fucked up country.[/quote]

What would a Corbyn led Government do if they were in power KK ?[/quote]

They are not unfortunately so we have to deal with the reality of the situation which is a bloke name Johnson racing the country towards a NO DEAL EXIT.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:28 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:

They are not unfortunately so we have to deal with the reality of the situation which is a bloke name Johnson racing the country towards a NO DEAL EXIT.


Reads like a "no idea" to me.

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