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 Post subject: Re: Corona
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:34 pm 
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An interesting article- gives an insight into how the trace/containinment process usually works, and how the coronovirus implementaion is not following standard processes.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk ... obal-en-GB

seems to me the process was never broke , so they fixed it anyway , then refixed to reappropriate accountabilty without the budget , and now they won't follow tried and tested processes for reasons best known to themselves- just to keep control.

perhaps someone on here (LB maybe) can comment - but surely this does not auger well.


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 Post subject: Re: Corona
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:40 pm 
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davejonesears wrote:
An interesting article- gives an insight into how the trace/containinment process usually works, and how the coronovirus implementaion is not following standard processes.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk ... obal-en-GB

seems to me the process was never broke , so they fixed it anyway , then refixed to reappropriate accountabilty without the budget , and now they won't follow tried and tested processes for reasons best known to themselves- just to keep control.

perhaps someone on here (LB maybe) can comment - but surely this does not auger well.


I wish I could comment with proper knowledge but I've never really been involved with Public Health officials and I've been out of the NHS for over 3 years now too. What I would say is that there is a very familiar pattern of well paid people looking to find ways of trying to keep power and the glory when there is any whilst ensuring the blame game doesn't end up on their own doorsteps. "We will keep central control of the data and claim any successes but we will put responsibility on to the regional Public Health Departments so that we know who we can blame when we need a get out."

Cynical? Yes, but I saw such scenarios played out many times by senior people.

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 Post subject: Re: Corona
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:34 am 
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interesting that we now think we have been OVER-estimating daily deaths in England, because apparently no-one has been 'allowed' to recover from the virus.

If you are old and quite sickly and got the virus in March, but then got over it ... and died from something completely different in June (as being over 80 you might well do!) - the death has been recorded as a coronavirus death!

The rest off the UK (and probably the world) uses different systems; in rest of UK, it only counts if within 28 days of testing positive.

Data... Statistics... You need to always know with what you are being presented. The media are AWFUL at doing that - especially with their headlines (which often bear little relation to the actual article/data....)

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 Post subject: Re: Corona
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:33 am 
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Left back wrote:
davejonesears wrote:
An interesting article- gives an insight into how the trace/containinment process usually works, and how the coronovirus implementaion is not following standard processes.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk ... obal-en-GB

seems to me the process was never broke , so they fixed it anyway , then refixed to reappropriate accountabilty without the budget , and now they won't follow tried and tested processes for reasons best known to themselves- just to keep control.

perhaps someone on here (LB maybe) can comment - but surely this does not auger well.


I wish I could comment with proper knowledge but I've never really been involved with Public Health officials and I've been out of the NHS for over 3 years now too. What I would say is that there is a very familiar pattern of well paid people looking to find ways of trying to keep power and the glory when there is any whilst ensuring the blame game doesn't end up on their own doorsteps. "We will keep central control of the data and claim any successes but we will put responsibility on to the regional Public Health Departments so that we know who we can blame when we need a get out."

Cynical? Yes, but I saw such scenarios played out many times by senior people.


What I would like to know is why 'other' NHS services have been totally abandoned or ignored to serve the Covid crisis.
Why has departments dealing specifically with renal, heart, cancer, surgery etc been devastated by the crisis.
Have the personnel working in such departments been moved from their duties and put on Covid wards? if not, why have their services ceased?

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 Post subject: Re: Corona
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:27 am 
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Rozza wrote:
Left back wrote:
davejonesears wrote:
An interesting article- gives an insight into how the trace/containinment process usually works, and how the coronovirus implementaion is not following standard processes.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk ... obal-en-GB

seems to me the process was never broke , so they fixed it anyway , then refixed to reappropriate accountabilty without the budget , and now they won't follow tried and tested processes for reasons best known to themselves- just to keep control.

perhaps someone on here (LB maybe) can comment - but surely this does not auger well.


I wish I could comment with proper knowledge but I've never really been involved with Public Health officials and I've been out of the NHS for over 3 years now too. What I would say is that there is a very familiar pattern of well paid people looking to find ways of trying to keep power and the glory when there is any whilst ensuring the blame game doesn't end up on their own doorsteps. "We will keep central control of the data and claim any successes but we will put responsibility on to the regional Public Health Departments so that we know who we can blame when we need a get out."

Cynical? Yes, but I saw such scenarios played out many times by senior people.


What I would like to know is why 'other' NHS services have been totally abandoned or ignored to serve the Covid crisis.
Why has departments dealing specifically with renal, heart, cancer, surgery etc been devastated by the crisis.
Have the personnel working in such departments been moved from their duties and put on Covid wards? if not, why have their services ceased?


The RJAH orthopaedic hospital in Oswestry is a truly marvellous place. Dedicated to bones and the like, and top of its class. They have been on Covid standby for months. The many elderly and young folk waiting for knee, Hip, and essential spinal surgery have been put on hold. When you've had your knee replacement surgery ( elective, so not now important) cancelled, and you can't walk. The thought that the five poor souls who have died in that hospital, with deaths attributed to Covid, could have been cared for by the many, under-utilised, 'normal' hospitals, allowing the specialist Docs and nurses in the RJAH to get on with being specialists, does come to mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Corona
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:32 am 
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Rozza wrote:
Left back wrote:
davejonesears wrote:
An interesting article- gives an insight into how the trace/containinment process usually works, and how the coronovirus implementaion is not following standard processes.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk ... obal-en-GB

seems to me the process was never broke , so they fixed it anyway , then refixed to reappropriate accountabilty without the budget , and now they won't follow tried and tested processes for reasons best known to themselves- just to keep control.

perhaps someone on here (LB maybe) can comment - but surely this does not auger well.


I wish I could comment with proper knowledge but I've never really been involved with Public Health officials and I've been out of the NHS for over 3 years now too. What I would say is that there is a very familiar pattern of well paid people looking to find ways of trying to keep power and the glory when there is any whilst ensuring the blame game doesn't end up on their own doorsteps. "We will keep central control of the data and claim any successes but we will put responsibility on to the regional Public Health Departments so that we know who we can blame when we need a get out."

Cynical? Yes, but I saw such scenarios played out many times by senior people.


What I would like to know is why 'other' NHS services have been totally abandoned or ignored to serve the Covid crisis.
Why has departments dealing specifically with renal, heart, cancer, surgery etc been devastated by the crisis.
Have the personnel working in such departments been moved from their duties and put on Covid wards? if not, why have their services ceased?



A very searching and valid question, Rozza...it demands an answer from the NHS and government.

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 Post subject: Re: Corona
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:05 pm 
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So some lockdown measurs are being reintroduced - the first of many I reckon.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53602362

How many people will actually do this for a second time ...my guess is far less then accepted it first time around.

I think they will end up closing the pubs and resturants to get anything like the compliance required tbh- however that will not stop inter house transmission.

I also see the Muslim council are saying it will impact on Eid that starts this Friday -although just to clarify they aren't saying the request shoud be ignored.

Good luck with getting that adherance- they have no chance, its a good job Saudi have stopped foreigners comin into the country - can you imagine the tramsission possibilties there!

I was under the impresssion they had already suggested Eid this year should be a socially distanced affair- not so sure what that means in practise.

It's the massive elephant in the room , same as Leicester, Bradford etc.

No main stream politician will out it ...and as soon as some one does it will be shouted down as racist...again, so we all look down at the floor and shuffle our feet ...again.


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 Post subject: Re: Corona
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:25 am 
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davejonesears wrote:
So some lockdown measurs are being reintroduced - the first of many I reckon.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53602362

How many people will actually do this for a second time ...my guess is far less then accepted it first time around.

I think they will end up closing the pubs and resturants to get anything like the compliance required tbh- however that will not stop inter house transmission.

I also see the Muslim council are saying it will impact on Eid that starts this Friday -although just to clarify they aren't saying the request shoud be ignored.

Good luck with getting that adherance- they have no chance, its a good job Saudi have stopped foreigners comin into the country - can you imagine the tramsission possibilties there!

I was under the impresssion they had already suggested Eid this year should be a socially distanced affair- not so sure what that means in practise.

It's the massive elephant in the room , same as Leicester, Bradford etc.

No main stream politician will out it ...and as soon as some one does it will be shouted down as racist...again, so we all look down at the floor and shuffle our feet ...again.


Churches still open. Mosques still open. But you can't see anyone else from outside your family in your own home. If tracking and tracing is the key, I generally know who I sit with in my front room. Do the Curates or their equivalents in Mosques know each and every person who walks into their establishments? Are those without masks, or those who don't care to share or indeed have a legal address, turned away ?

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 Post subject: Re: Corona
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:29 am 
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The government, having spotted the elephant in the room, has now contacted firms to make face masks for these elephants. They must conceal all of base of the trunk.... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Corona
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:57 pm 
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So did Boris open up too much too soon - I think so.

If I recall correctly the Health advisors/scientists etc. did not appear to be quite so enthusiastic or so convincing when it came to the timetables proposed by the givernment a mere 4-6 weeks ago.

Subsequently it seems local lockdows and the re-assessment of the relaxing of lockdown measures lends credence to the feeling they didn't believe the science supported Johnsons proposals.

Before we know it schools will be repoening and if the relaxations to date result in schools not being able to safely reoppen that will have a severe impact to the faith many will have on the governments ongoing handling of this.

The support they had at the start , when it appeared they were on a hiding to nothing will not remain if they contiue to lurch from one crisis to another.

If the current trend of the pandemic numbers means schools cannot reopen they will have something to answer for come september.

I believe they are frittering away the good will they have banked to date - there still seems to be a lack of structure to the localised health control mechansims for both the testing/tracking and reporting and a distinct lack of enforcement.

Although the good old UK Joe public are still mindless morons - and have a lot to answer for.
Pictires of trains and beaches on teh very day lockdown measure are reintroduced in NW England says it all really - it shows them for wah they really are : mindless fuckwits.

However you view it surely it's a mess , and communication is poor:

Whats happening with the much touted application now - anyone know.
Whats the percentage compliance with the current track and trace- anyone know.
Whats the latest with vaccines now- anyone know.
Whats happening with PPE stock and supply chains now- anyone know.
Whats happening with care homes now - anyone know.
Whats happeing with testing pre & post hospital admitance now to reduce spread both into hosiptal and back into the community- anyone know.
Why are Tescos & Sainsburys et al allowed to state they will not enforce the wearing of masks?
Why are councils not being paid to have enforcement ofificers going round spot checking pubs & restuarants to ensure social distancing compliance with the power to immediately shut premises that transgress.
Why has that pub in Stone not been closed and the publicans license revoked- is that possible ?..if not why not?

Minimum weekly comms with a more robust implementation of the rules is needed- immediately.

It is surely now obvious to even the most ardent libertines that the great British public simply cannot be trusted.


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 Post subject: Re: Corona
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:42 am 
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I personally see that the cohesion and Dunkirk spirit shown by society at the height of the pandemic is now dissipating rapidly and divisions are becoming quite clear.
Firstly the attitudes of the mainly young are creating anxieties due to their belief that it will not affect them as it only hurts the old and they are indestructible.
Those reckless and vacuous attitudes are leading to spikes in the disease which causes further lock downs which causes further anger in those folk who through no fault of their own have their lives and liberty affected again.
The South Asian communities who are regularly told that they are at greater risk than most in catching and spreading the disease choose to ignore the advice then blame everyone else when their community is locked down first.
People who chose holidaying over personal safety then publicly bleat that everything is unfair and it is safer to be in Spain/turkey/ Greece etc than being in the UK after travelling to and from it in a heat treated aluminum tube whilst breathing recycled breath within it??

It is beginning to grate when people who have given up so much are still being imprisoned by the virus due to those fellow citizens who have perhaps not given up as much.

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 Post subject: Re: Corona
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:09 am 
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When we moved from Hong Kong, our boxes were packed by experts and everyone doused in roach killer by them, by the shipping company, and again on arrival in the UK. First box I opened, out strolled a huge red cockroach, totally oblivious to the danger of my foot about to crush its head-in, and non the worse for all the 100% guaranteed , three time, roach-killer treatments.

This virus is the same. Box it. Lock it in, spray it as much as you like and it will still keep giving. We have never gotten rid of the common cold, which started off exactly the same way, and until all of us get the sniffles every year ( with more than a few pegging it from associated respiratory issues, just like the cold/flu) and the majority wipe it off with a hanky, it's here to stay.

Long live Sweden.

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 Post subject: Re: Corona
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:42 am 
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suiging wrote:
When we moved from Hong Kong, our boxes were packed by experts and everyone doused in roach killer by them, by the shipping company, and again on arrival in the UK. First box I opened, out strolled a huge red cockroach, totally oblivious to the danger of my foot about to crush its head-in, and non the worse for all the 100% guaranteed , three time, roach-killer treatments.

This virus is the same. Box it. Lock it in, spray it as much as you like and it will still keep giving. We have never gotten rid of the common cold, which started off exactly the same way, and until all of us get the sniffles every year ( with more than a few pegging it from associated respiratory issues, just like the cold/flu) and the majority wipe it off with a hanky, it's here to stay.

Long live Sweden.


The virus isn't the common cold nor the flu though is it ..no matter how many times people try to suggest it is.
As for Sweden the jury is out on their approach:.
Substantially more deaths than any other neighbouring country.
Adjecent countries not opening their borders to the Swedes yet.
Yes their ecomnomy and schools hasn't been so impacted and thats a good thing.
But they are far more compliant to social distancing regulations and their demogrraph is not like ours.
When everybody elses approach has been to close borders and reduce import/export its not so easy to compare.
They are not the Nirvana their epimedimiologist (?) would like to suggest they are.


Last edited by davejonesears on Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Corona
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:52 am 
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Rozza wrote:
I personally see that the cohesion and Dunkirk spirit shown by society at the height of the pandemic is now dissipating rapidly and divisions are becoming quite clear.
Firstly the attitudes of the mainly young are creating anxieties due to their belief that it will not affect them as it only hurts the old and they are indestructible.
Those reckless and vacuous attitudes are leading to spikes in the disease which causes further lock downs which causes further anger in those folk who through no fault of their own have their lives and liberty affected again.
The South Asian communities who are regularly told that they are at greater risk than most in catching and spreading the disease choose to ignore the advice then blame everyone else when their community is locked down first.
People who chose holidaying over personal safety then publicly bleat that everything is unfair and it is safer to be in Spain/turkey/ Greece etc than being in the UK after travelling to and from it in a heat treated aluminum tube whilst breathing recycled breath within it??

It is beginning to grate when people who have given up so much are still being imprisoned by the virus due to those fellow citizens who have perhaps not given up as much.


Absolutely - lets go abroad in the middle of a pandemic then cry like babies when it kicks us in the bolox.
Lets all do what the fuck we like then complain about it - and suggest its all a plot on social media to exonerate our behaviours.
I mean if there is a vaccine and not enough take it up due to the fuckwits on FaceBook then as a government I'd be looking what I can do about that.

As for the boss of Barclays (and the PM) suggesting people return to the workplace now ...whats driving them , its most certainly NOT the safelty of those employees.
It will be their friends who own the services not being used.

A tricky rebalancing of employment to reflect WFH is rerquired- ironcally that will be replacing individual journeys with delievry drivers - from all the 'shopping ' people order whilst 'at work' :)


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 Post subject: Re: Corona
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:48 pm 
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davejonesears wrote:
suiging wrote:
When we moved from Hong Kong, our boxes were packed by experts and everyone doused in roach killer by them, by the shipping company, and again on arrival in the UK. First box I opened, out strolled a huge red cockroach, totally oblivious to the danger of my foot about to crush its head-in, and non the worse for all the 100% guaranteed , three time, roach-killer treatments.

This virus is the same. Box it. Lock it in, spray it as much as you like and it will still keep giving. We have never gotten rid of the common cold, which started off exactly the same way, and until all of us get the sniffles every year ( with more than a few pegging it from associated respiratory issues, just like the cold/flu) and the majority wipe it off with a hanky, it's here to stay.

Long live Sweden.


The virus isn't the common cold nor the flu though is it ..no matter how many times people try to suggest it is.
As for Sweden the jury is out on their approach:.
Substantially more deaths than any other neighbouring country.
Adjecent countries not opening their borders to the Swedes yet.
Yes their ecomnomy and schools hasn't been so impacted and thats a good thing.
But they are far more compliant to social distancing regulations and their demogrraph is not like ours.
When everybody elses approach has been to close borders and reduce import/export its not so easy to compare.
They are not the Nirvana their epimedimiologist (?) would like to suggest they are.


But they respect the virus, they don't fear it. No state can protect everyone of its citizens from life. The virus is now part of life, but surely should not define it. I will have you a little bet that more people will die in the UK as a result of not attending, or being given the opportunity to attend, treatments for serious conditions over the next six months than die of Covid. This virus kills the weak, and the elderly ( and quite possibly me with blood pressure issues). Ring fence those you can with such characteristics and route resources to that effort. Properly run care homes, properly run hospitals, and look after the elderly. Imagine if a fraction of the money given out for twenty-somethings to stop at home doing nothing was put to such uses? No the virus is not the flu. But strains of the things we collectively call flu which exist now in as much as one in ten so called flu cases, can trace its origin to the nineteen century 'Russian" flu which had almost exactly the same characteristics and death rates as Covid. Over time, this evolved into the much overused term the 'flu'. No one closed down the world then, and eventually as 99/100 virologists seem to agree, the virus given time, ran its natural course and we humans adapted. In an attempt to save every last person in the UK no matter what, a concept never before seen in history, we will have social breakdowns, regional and ethnic strife, and a country and NHS brought to its knees as the true cost of this impossible policy truly kick-in. I also sadly think we will have more deaths. Yes more people seem to be getting it again, but less people are dying as we know better ways to cope. For some days now deaths in the UK are below a five year average. We are learning to manage something that's not going away. Personally I think Sweden knew that from the beginning. They have not stopped cancer treatments or important medical procedures. Yes statistics show they lost a couple more per million than Norway, but that's pretty fatuous as who goes in and out of Norway on a daily basis ? The Swedes think they will save more over time as they keep up their general medical facilities and maintain their economy. Who's to say they are wrong when the numbers for the UK are estimated to stand at over thirty thousand dead from not receiving appropriate treatment due to Covid, figures generated from our own PH 'experts'.

Nanny state politics may keep the lid on Pandoras Box. But the thing will come back every time you lift that lid. It's not going anywhere soon. I hope we get a vaccine before I go to the loo one morning and can't pee, or get an appointment for a camera up the jap-eye to find out why. I hope, but I'm not sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Corona
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:16 pm 
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I can agree with a lot of that- especially in regards the stopping of treatments and the care home situation.

I have said for a while the care homes situation would come back to bite the government and it has.

For something that seemed (on the surface at least) so easy to control I am somewhat perplexed about theIr inabilty to do so with any success , esp. as we saw what happened in Spain and Italy.

It was alsmost like they couldnt control two things at once (NHS & Care Homes) even though the two would seem complimentary.

I also thought months ago the NHS needed a two tiered approach - covid hospitals and non covid ones.
Yes it may have meant more travel for some but surely any op is better than none - I think this should be something that is addressed going forward if we need to live with this for any length of time.

I only hope the NHS have a more comprehensive & joined approach to the whole COVID scenario now , with testing pre admittance and post op/pre discharge and control during hospitalisation.
My mom goes in for an op next week ,and tbh Im far more concerned about the COVID control aspects of the appointment than with the op itself.


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 Post subject: Re: Corona
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:25 am 
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davejonesears wrote:
I
I only hope the NHS have a more comprehensive & joined approach.


I don't ever recll that being the case about anything.

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