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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:54 am 
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ok in a nutshell my opinion is:

The EU has been a strong 'partner' & we have both benefitted from and been hampered by its policies in the past, but now it is becoming a self serving institution, with a fully integrated frederal Europe its avowed aim.-

Either you wanted to be part of that ambition -or you didn't.

If you are happy with the way the EU is run , the courts , a joint fiscal policy , joint armed forces etc then fine the EU has a valid place- and you vote in

If you are not then you vote out.

The rest? Thats all conjecture and hypothesis.

I hope the right decision has been made- even if for some (not all) it will have been made for the wrong reasons.


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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:35 am 
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davejonesears wrote:
raggedwolf wrote:
When we now what the actual exit deal actually is should we not have another vote to approve that actual deal- as opposed to the vague aspiration and hot air that Leave put forward without having a clue really


As an alternate viewpoint you could turn it round and say that we knew what the in deal was....and didnt want it.

As for the question
No I don't think thats a workable idea as thats the politicians job - you cant rule by proxy on everything.

The complexity on this issue alone meant not enough valid information was offered or available can you imagine trying to wade through the information required to make an informed decision on more detailed issues.

Also as people are complaining about this result imagine the turmoil if the vote didnt turn out as hoped.


It was only a REFERENDUM and the result is not set in stone. I cannot at this moment quote you the meaning of a Referendum, but as I understand its interpretation under English Law then, the Government do not have to follow the result through to completion albeit, there would possibly be Civil War if they didn't. The Fat Lady is not singing just yet. :wink:

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:50 am 
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I didn't even vote to leave because the "campaigns" were ridiculous and there was no way anyone could make a proper informed opinion. The aftermath will be a bloodbath as politicians try to point the finger and position themselves for their own benefit, I think this was the catalyst for brexit winning in the first place but the bourgeois don't see it, they still only have their own personal interests and plays for power in mind and look down on the ignorant, racist working class.

All the crying from the remain side is ridiculous and indicative of the modern world, I didn't get my way so I will stamp my feet until I do, twitter is awash with salty tears blaming older people for ruining their young lives, it's fucking pathetic, the older generations fought and died so you could have your opinion on twitter you spoilt pricks, show some respect. Calls for another referendum because it didn't go their way, they seem to want to do away with democracy and don't see any irony in it at all.

I can still see them getting their way as I think the political parties, whoever comes out of the coming purge, won't have the balls to actually go through with it, they will ignore the will of the majority of the people and cosy back up to Europe.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:01 pm 
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Ironfistedmonk wrote:
I didn't even vote to leave because the "campaigns" were ridiculous and there was no way anyone could make a proper informed opinion. The aftermath will be a bloodbath as politicians try to point the finger and position themselves for their own benefit, I think this was the catalyst for brexit winning in the first place but the bourgeois don't see it, they still only have their own personal interests and plays for power in mind and look down on the ignorant, racist working class.

All the crying from the remain side is ridiculous and indicative of the modern world, I didn't get my way so I will stamp my feet until I do, twitter is awash with salty tears blaming older people for ruining their young lives, it's fucking pathetic, the older generations fought and died so you could have your opinion on twitter you spoilt pricks, show some respect. Calls for another referendum because it didn't go their way, they seem to want to do away with democracy and don't see any irony in it at all.

I can still see them getting their way as I think the political parties, whoever comes out of the coming purge, won't have the balls to actually go through with it, they will ignore the will of the majority of the people and cosy back up to Europe.


My post from a while back:

"That is why even though i have no clue how good/bad it will be if we stay in or leave(how the fuck could we really ffs)i will vote leave just to see how they try to get out it and they will."

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:10 pm 
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https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status ... 4610692096

We've basically gone through all this for nothing. Don't say we didn't tell you! :lol:


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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:20 pm 
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lankywolf wrote:
This holier than thou attitude and patronising tone now being taken by the losing side is very sad. Democracy isn't perfect, but it's the best system we have and we must accept the decision and move forward on that basis. The bickering now taking place will only cause further division.

Frankly, I was a bit of a fence sitter on this issue for a while, however the arrogance and bully boy tactics of some of the leading figures in EU pushed me towards leave.

There were exaggerations and downright untruths on both sides of the debate and I took what I heard off both sides with a pinch of salt.

It all came down to whether I trusted the people in power within the EU to make decisions with the best interests of myself and my children at heart and when I asked myself that question, my heart and my head both came up with the same answer.....NO.


Lanky, with all respect, I don't see how any future decisions made by the EU whether that be related to further or continued sanctions against Russia, their EU economic programmes, their EU Army idea or the Refugee crisis etc. and whether or not you trust them to make those decisions changes nothing really as all such major decisions made by the EU will have a direct affect on the UK. The difference is now, that we will not have a voice to veto or change those decisions and just have to deal with the aftermath.

lankywolf wrote:
It's my feeling that the EU is a club ran primarily for the benefit of the people and organisations who hold sway within it. The EU project itself has become more important than the welfare of your average European citizen.


Firstly, I would agree that the EU as it is now is outdated and the UK Referendum result has sent shock-waves through Brussels with some already standing up and saying this is the warning that we need to change the way the EU works. However, I have to disagree with the latter part of your sentence. Having lived in a former Communist third world country since 2009, I have seen great improvements across the board as a result of EU/EBRD etc. investment and support into the Bulgarian infrastructure and economy. I could agree that £Millions of it has been trousered through corruption, but I do see the money filtering down where it affects the individual Citizen.

In today's world of Politics where all politicians are seen (and often proven) to be out for themselves, it is difficult to change people's mindset and especially of those people who lived under communism. I am of the opinion that the EU idea is to raise the standards of these former communist third world countries so that their citizens have something to be proud of and return home to live and work instead of seeking employment in the richer EU countries such as the UK, Germany, France etc. I hear that Romania is doing even better than Bulgaria, but they were wise enough to line their former communist leaders up against a wall and stem the flow of corruption that we endure. :roll:

lankywolf wrote:
The talk now is of the EU making an example of the UK to say to other member states, "if you leave, look what we'll do to you." It will be a shame if that happens, but if it does it will reinforce my opinion that the EU project comes before anything else.


Talk is cheap and I cannot see it happening, but I might be wrong. Even Boris suggests that this is not a complete divorce and as I said earlier, every major EU decision will affect the UK in some way or another then, we have to work with Europe and they have to work with us. Who needs who the most at this current time is too difficult for me to judge and I doubt those paid to do it in the Think Tanks have any better idea than I do.

Just my opinion, of course.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:31 pm 
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SpaceMonkey wrote:
https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/746466834610692096

We've basically gone through all this for nothing. Don't say we didn't tell you! :lol:


There Are None So Blind As Those Who Will Not See and None so deaf as those that will not hear.

Add to that the points I raised earlier about ''Accession Rights'' under the Vienna Convention, folk applying for UK Citizenship/Passports, the numbers of EU Citizens that will now arrive legally trying to get in BEFORE Article 50 is invoked (IF IT IS,) in October plus, the Quota system for non-EU immigration and I reckon that the situation is slightly worse now than what is was before the Referendum, but nowhere near better and no signs of ''Controlling Our Borders''.

Farcical.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:39 pm 
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Moscow Wolf wrote:
davejonesears wrote:
raggedwolf wrote:
When we now what the actual exit deal actually is should we not have another vote to approve that actual deal- as opposed to the vague aspiration and hot air that Leave put forward without having a clue really


As an alternate viewpoint you could turn it round and say that we knew what the in deal was....and didnt want it.

As for the question
No I don't think thats a workable idea as thats the politicians job - you cant rule by proxy on everything.

The complexity on this issue alone meant not enough valid information was offered or available can you imagine trying to wade through the information required to make an informed decision on more detailed issues.

Also as people are complaining about this result imagine the turmoil if the vote didnt turn out as hoped.


It was only a REFERENDUM and the result is not set in stone. I cannot at this moment quote you the meaning of a Referendum, but as I understand its interpretation under English Law then, the Government do not have to follow the result through to completion albeit, there would possibly be Civil War if they didn't. The Fat Lady is not singing just yet. :wink:



Yes thats correct this referendum has no legal clout as far as I understand - however it shows a strength of feeling within the populus that has shown politicians how detached they have become from a general consensus.

If again they decide to ignore this result and decide that yet again they know best then it shows what democrarcy means to them.

To suggest another election with parties setting out what they want to do in respect to article 50 is just another way of havng yet another vote on this subject.

and tbh if this happened it could open the door to some unsavoury and unpaletable MPs being elected- they've made the mistake of underestimating certain feelings - I hope they dont make the same mistale twice! .

They've had a 'vote' - now the main parties need to deal with it.


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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:09 pm 
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The older generation voted for a future the youth don't want

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:23 pm 
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CANNOCK WOLF wrote:
The older generation voted for a future the youth don't want


well from what I understand of the percentage of elligible youth voters that actually voted they should have gotten off their arse and voted.They couldn't have wanted it that much.

They knew the feeling amongst the older voters surely ...if they didnt realse they must be stupid so perhaps it was better they didnt vote :)


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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:01 pm 
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HOW AGES VOTED (YouGov poll)
18-24: 75% Remain
25-49: 56% Remain
50-64: 44% Remain
65+ : 39% Remain

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:54 pm 
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Moscow Wolf wrote:
lankywolf wrote:
This holier than thou attitude and patronising tone now being taken by the losing side is very sad. Democracy isn't perfect, but it's the best system we have and we must accept the decision and move forward on that basis. The bickering now taking place will only cause further division.

Frankly, I was a bit of a fence sitter on this issue for a while, however the arrogance and bully boy tactics of some of the leading figures in EU pushed me towards leave.

There were exaggerations and downright untruths on both sides of the debate and I took what I heard off both sides with a pinch of salt.

It all came down to whether I trusted the people in power within the EU to make decisions with the best interests of myself and my children at heart and when I asked myself that question, my heart and my head both came up with the same answer.....NO.


Lanky, with all respect, I don't see how any future decisions made by the EU whether that be related to further or continued sanctions against Russia, their EU economic programmes, their EU Army idea or the Refugee crisis etc. and whether or not you trust them to make those decisions changes nothing really as all such major decisions made by the EU will have a direct affect on the UK. The difference is now, that we will not have a voice to veto or change those decisions and just have to deal with the aftermath.

lankywolf wrote:
It's my feeling that the EU is a club ran primarily for the benefit of the people and organisations who hold sway within it. The EU project itself has become more important than the welfare of your average European citizen.


Firstly, I would agree that the EU as it is now is outdated and the UK Referendum result has sent shock-waves through Brussels with some already standing up and saying this is the warning that we need to change the way the EU works. However, I have to disagree with the latter part of your sentence. Having lived in a former Communist third world country since 2009, I have seen great improvements across the board as a result of EU/EBRD etc. investment and support into the Bulgarian infrastructure and economy. I could agree that £Millions of it has been trousered through corruption, but I do see the money filtering down where it affects the individual Citizen.

In today's world of Politics where all politicians are seen (and often proven) to be out for themselves, it is difficult to change people's mindset and especially of those people who lived under communism. I am of the opinion that the EU idea is to raise the standards of these former communist third world countries so that their citizens have something to be proud of and return home to live and work instead of seeking employment in the richer EU countries such as the UK, Germany, France etc. I hear that Romania is doing even better than Bulgaria, but they were wise enough to line their former communist leaders up against a wall and stem the flow of corruption that we endure. :roll:

lankywolf wrote:
The talk now is of the EU making an example of the UK to say to other member states, "if you leave, look what we'll do to you." It will be a shame if that happens, but if it does it will reinforce my opinion that the EU project comes before anything else.


Talk is cheap and I cannot see it happening, but I might be wrong. Even Boris suggests that this is not a complete divorce and as I said earlier, every major EU decision will affect the UK in some way or another then, we have to work with Europe and they have to work with us. Who needs who the most at this current time is too difficult for me to judge and I doubt those paid to do it in the Think Tanks have any better idea than I do.

Just my opinion, of course.

Moscow, I respect your opinion and appreciate that you probably have a different perspective on things due to living inside one of the newer member countries of the EU.
I personally don't believe this referendum will ultimately result in a full withdrawal from the EU. I have thought that all along. When I voted I didn't believe that the leave side would win, but I thought the larger the leave vote, the bigger the message would be to the EU bigwigs that their project is in need of radical reform.
Time will tell if I have judged that correctly. But one thing is for sure, this result has sent a very strong message and I don't regret my vote for a second.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:23 pm 
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CANNOCK WOLF wrote:
HOW AGES VOTED (YouGov poll)
18-24: 75% Remain
25-49: 56% Remain
50-64: 44% Remain
65+ : 39% Remain



yep I saw those percentages ...what would be interesting is what % of those eligible to vote in each of those age groups actually voted.I'd wager it would be almost the inverse of those figures

I assume those statistics are out there somewhere - I just can't be bothered to look :)


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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:01 am 
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So. Cameron has pulled a fast one and resigned before invoking article 50.

Who is going to have the balls to take over and invoke it, knowing it would quite possibly be career suicide...


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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:46 am 
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just watched this guy giving his rationale on the bbc news

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36629646

what a petulant wanker- if this doesnt show that the remain campaign is putting themselvrs before British intrests I dont know what does.


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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:20 am 
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davejonesears wrote:
just watched this guy giving his rationale on the bbc news

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36629646

what a petulant wanker- if this doesnt show that the remain campaign is putting themselvrs before British intrests I dont know what does.


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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:21 am 
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SpaceMonkey wrote:
So. Cameron has pulled a fast one and resigned before invoking article 50.

Who is going to have the balls to take over and invoke it, knowing it would quite possibly be career suicide...


Quote:
The legal blogger David Allen Green has explained clearly, the measure Britons just voted for “was an advisory not a mandatory referendum,” meaning that it is not legally binding on the government. No matter who the prime minister is, he or she is not required by the outcome to trigger Article 50. And, despite what senior figures in the EU and its other states might say, there is no way for them to force the UK to invoke Article 50.


It is suggested that even Boris doesn't really want a total separation divorce from the EU and that (if he is PM,) might use the Referendum as a negotiating tool to get an even better deal for the UK within the EU. Considering what is happening in Scotland, the next PM has to be really smart to avoid not only the possible break-up of the EU, but the UK too. Not an enviable position and some Millions of UK folk are going to be let down in this now divided nation.

British Exit From EU NOT INEVITABLE

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:13 am 
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The majority vote by Britons to leave the European Union was an act of raw democracy.

Millions of ordinary people refused to be bullied, intimidated and dismissed with open contempt by their presumed betters in the major parties, the leaders of the business and banking oligarchy and the media.

This was, in great part, a vote by those angered and demoralised by the sheer arrogance of the apologists for the "remain" campaign and the dismemberment of a socially just civil life in Britain.

The last bastion of the historic reforms of 1945, the National Health Service, has been so subverted by Tory and Labour-supported privateers it is fighting for its life.

A forewarning came when the Treasurer, George Osborne, the embodiment of both Britain's ancient regime and the banking mafia in Europe, threatened to cut £30 billion from public services if people voted the wrong way; it was blackmail on a shocking scale.

http://democracyandclasstruggle.blogspo ... l?spref=tw

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:39 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
The majority vote by Britons to leave the European Union was an act of raw democracy.


It was a slight majority not a landslide victory and as some are now saying, ''we never thought Leave would win, but we wanted to scare them somewhat, so voted Leave''.

knocker knowles wrote:
Millions of ordinary people refused to be bullied, intimidated and dismissed with open contempt by their presumed betters in the major parties, the leaders of the business and banking oligarchy and the media.


And, many other Millions voted to Remain. So, you didn't even believe your own Labour Party Leader and how sad is that! Perhaps if Jeremy had the charisma and could lie barefaced like Farage then, the vote might have gone the other way.

knocker knowles wrote:
This was, in great part, a vote by those angered and demoralised by the sheer arrogance of the apologists for the "remain" campaign and the dismemberment of a socially just civil life in Britain.

The last bastion of the historic reforms of 1945, the National Health Service, has been so subverted by Tory and Labour-supported privateers it is fighting for its life.


What has all of that got to do with the EU? The EU has given Workers and Citizens plenty of protective rights, freedom of movement and now what is going to replace those charters?

knocker knowles wrote:
A forewarning came when the Treasurer, George Osborne, the embodiment of both Britain's ancient regime and the banking mafia in Europe, threatened to cut £30 billion from public services if people voted the wrong way; it was blackmail on a shocking scale.


Well, perhaps you Leave campaigners should now push for another Referendum concerning the UK Government's Foreign Aid Programme where £12.1Bn was given as Foreign Aid last year with Pakistan being top of the food chain:-

Mugs of the World

I trust you voted on the basis of what was best for the UK and not just out of spite to get one up on your so called establishment - the Leave Referendum win is not going to stop the rich getting richer, not going to stop the Media Moguls printing what they want and is not going to stop Politicians serving themselves. However, as far as I understand it, there now has to be some new Citizen's rights Charter drawn up (I might be wrong) to replace the ones set out by the EU. Therefore, you may well LOSE more than you had before because there are no outside influences to interfere with what Parliament decides you should have as rights. :idea: :roll:

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:14 am 
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Moscow Wolf wrote:
...the Leave Referendum win is not going to stop the rich getting richer, not going to stop the Media Moguls printing what they want and is not going to stop Politicians serving themselves. However, as far as I understand it, there now has to be some new Citizen's rights Charter drawn up (I might be wrong) to replace the ones set out by the EU. Therefore, you may well LOSE more than you had before because there are no outside influences to interfere with what Parliament decides you should have as rights. :idea: :roll:


Spot on.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:18 am 
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Statistics :mrgreen:

Where was the call for another election last year when about 63% of the country didn't vote conservative?
In 1997 when it was deemed a massive landslide for Tony Blair 57% of voters didn't vote for him.
So my conclusion is this referendum is the most democratic vote this country has had in decades with 52% of people actually getting what they want.Unheard of really.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:22 am 
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SELWolf wrote:
Moscow Wolf wrote:
...the Leave Referendum win is not going to stop the rich getting richer, not going to stop the Media Moguls printing what they want and is not going to stop Politicians serving themselves. However, as far as I understand it, there now has to be some new Citizen's rights Charter drawn up (I might be wrong) to replace the ones set out by the EU. Therefore, you may well LOSE more than you had before because there are no outside influences to interfere with what Parliament decides you should have as rights. :idea: :roll:


Spot on.


The Eu so good for workers rights we are told but it didn't stop the zero hours contract did it.People will always find a way to screw you in or out of the Eu.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:31 am 
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kenbarlowsslippers wrote:
SELWolf wrote:
Moscow Wolf wrote:
...the Leave Referendum win is not going to stop the rich getting richer, not going to stop the Media Moguls printing what they want and is not going to stop Politicians serving themselves. However, as far as I understand it, there now has to be some new Citizen's rights Charter drawn up (I might be wrong) to replace the ones set out by the EU. Therefore, you may well LOSE more than you had before because there are no outside influences to interfere with what Parliament decides you should have as rights. :idea: :roll:


Spot on.


The Eu so good for workers rights we are told but it didn't stop the zero hours contract did it.People will always find a way to screw you in or out of the Eu.


Well its about time workers grew some bollocks and stood together rather than meekly accepting the ruling classes wishes.
Fuck me this fight should have been done and dusted not stretching on through another fuckin century.
There has to come a time when you stand up to Tories and fuck them off.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:38 am 
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KK you are missing a massive point in all of this,Labour and Cons were together on this!!Also only a quarter of MPs were in favour of leave so how does parliament represent the people?don't blame the cons fuck them all off.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:39 am 
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kenbarlowsslippers wrote:
Statistics :mrgreen:

Where was the call for another election last year when about 63% of the country didn't vote conservative?
In 1997 when it was deemed a massive landslide for Tony Blair 57% of voters didn't vote for him.
So my conclusion is this referendum is the most democratic vote this country has had in decades with 52% of people actually getting what they want.Unheard of really.


The trouble is, general elections are bound within the constitution and referenda aren't. The legal intricacies that now have to be tackled is an absolutely massive problem. Furthermore, the way in which it was set up was based on shaky legal foundations insofar as that it wasn't provided with any constitutional criteria. It was like an idea that got thought up in a playground as a result of a knee-jerk reaction and no fecker thought about how the outcome would be sorted. Had the country voted to stay in then there wouldn't have been such a problem because the status quo would have prevailed but now the vote is to leave they don't know how to unravel the myriad complex set of legislation. It's going to be a legal nightmare which will last for years.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:43 am 
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kenbarlowsslippers wrote:
Also only a quarter of MPs were in favour of leave so how does parliament represent the people?


That's always been the case and capital punishment is another issue which MPs will never follow the will of the public on and why there will never be a referendum on it despite the calls that have happened in the past for one.

With this referendum, MPs don't have to follow the will of the outcome. That's why there's a constitutional crisis on our hands and why as I said in the previous post that it wasn't set up properly in the first place.

Please be aware that although I voted for Remain, my comments in these two posts have nothing to do with my own view about the outcome but are about the situation we now find ourselves in.

Wankers the lot of them.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:53 am 
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kenbarlowsslippers wrote:
KK you are missing a massive point in all of this,Labour and Cons were together on this!!Also only a quarter of MPs were in favour of leave so how does parliament represent the people?don't blame the cons fuck them all off.


I aint missing the point this coming week we will fuck off the Tories from within our party.

We shouldn't accept this type of scum within society let alone in politics.

The Conservative party was scum, is scum and will always be scum, lets clarify that.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:56 am 
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SELWolf wrote:
kenbarlowsslippers wrote:
Also only a quarter of MPs were in favour of leave so how does parliament represent the people?


That's always been the case and capital punishment is another issue which MPs will never follow the will of the public on and why there will never be a referendum on it despite the calls that have happened in the past for one.

With this referendum, MPs don't have to follow the will of the outcome. That's why there's a constitutional crisis on our hands and why as I said in the previous post that it wasn't set up properly in the first place.

Please be aware that although I voted for Remain, my comments in these two posts have nothing to do with my own view about the outcome but are about the situation we now find ourselves in.

Wankers the lot of them.


It is a bit like what i said in an earlier post about expert opinions,you believe and use them when it suits your own agenda.As the leave doesn't suit,well we know what will happen.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:00 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
kenbarlowsslippers wrote:
KK you are missing a massive point in all of this,Labour and Cons were together on this!!Also only a quarter of MPs were in favour of leave so how does parliament represent the people?don't blame the cons fuck them all off.


I aint missing the point this coming week we will fuck off the Tories from within our party.

We shouldn't accept this type of scum within society let alone in politics.

The Conservative party was scum, is scum and will always be scum, lets clarify that.


For nearly 20 years the Labour Party has been Conservative in all but name,so good luck with changing that in a week.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:05 am 
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kenbarlowsslippers wrote:
It is a bit like what i said in an earlier post about expert opinions,you believe and use them when it suits your own agenda.As the leave doesn't suit,well we know what will happen.


I haven't a clue what will happen, mate, and I'm sure that there's uncertainty right across the business world which will fundamentally affect the economy.

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