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 Post subject: OUT, The Negotiations.
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:22 am 
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Day one.

May finds herself Merkeled as she asks for parallel talks regards exit and new pathway.

Nope lets get your exit sorted first before we enter into those other negotiations.

Day one sees Mays government looking to link trade and security, bad strategy putting peoples lives on the line in the first place.

Must try harder..

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 Post Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:49 am 
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I note this morning one of the fundamental negotiating points put forward by Ms May in her letter to the European Council was instantly dismissed by the German Chancellor. In a nutshell why I voted to leave. We were never in Europe, just members of a Pan-Germanic/Franco conglomerate, which when push comes to shove drops the Franco bit and resembles the Fourth Reich.

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 Post Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:03 am 
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suiging wrote:
I note this morning one of the fundamental negotiating points put forward by Ms May in her letter to the European Council was instantly dismissed by the German Chancellor. In a nutshell why I voted to leave. We were never in Europe, just members of a Pan-Germanic/Franco conglomerate, which when push comes to shove drops the Franco bit and resembles the Fourth Reich.


Same for me, we never received any compromise on the immigration front from Brussels, they all stood aside and let illegal migrants head for Calais, go there they said and get to UK where they are too generous with benefits and have good employment prospects... Ditto the European Court of Human rights, never allowed us to deport Doctor Hook, the hatred preacher..so, after a while...and given a vote....Joe Soap says: Fuck Off.

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 Post Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:14 am 
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gladbachwolf wrote:
suiging wrote:
I note this morning one of the fundamental negotiating points put forward by Ms May in her letter to the European Council was instantly dismissed by the German Chancellor. In a nutshell why I voted to leave. We were never in Europe, just members of a Pan-Germanic/Franco conglomerate, which when push comes to shove drops the Franco bit and resembles the Fourth Reich.


Same for me, we never received any compromise on the immigration front from Brussels, they all stood aside and let illegal migrants head for Calais, go there they said and get to UK where they are too generous with benefits and have good employment prospects... Ditto the European Court of Human rights, never allowed us to deport Doctor Hook, the hatred preacher..so, after a while...and given a vote....Joe Soap says: Fuck Off.



Aye. Just for fun look up "The London Agreement On German External Debt". See how we bent over backwards to allow them to flourish and put aside war debt which would have crippled them for ever. They have short memories ( or perhaps they don't, with revenge a dish best served cold ).

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 Post Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:29 am 
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The British public, even the Lib/Dems will finally see the true nature of the monster we have just left. Brussels being the Orville to the German Keith Harris, will be revealed in all it's glory.

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 Post Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:57 am 
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Ag ... rnal_Debts


Very interesting. Thanks for the info, suiging... :smt023

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 Post Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:33 pm 
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gladbachwolf wrote:
suiging wrote:
I note this morning one of the fundamental negotiating points put forward by Ms May in her letter to the European Council was instantly dismissed by the German Chancellor. In a nutshell why I voted to leave. We were never in Europe, just members of a Pan-Germanic/Franco conglomerate, which when push comes to shove drops the Franco bit and resembles the Fourth Reich.


Same for me, we never received any compromise on the immigration front from Brussels, they all stood aside and let illegal migrants head for Calais, go there they said and get to UK where they are too generous with benefits and have good employment prospects... Ditto the European Court of Human rights, never allowed us to deport Doctor Hook, the hatred preacher..so, after a while...and given a vote....Joe Soap says: Fuck Off.


The European Court of human rights is not part of the EU - uk still subject to it post brexit

Its the European Court of justice which we walk away from

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 Post Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:20 am 
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Well we reach the end of week one with this UK Government looking more and more incompetent as each stage unravels.

Get the pop corn.

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 Post Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:59 am 
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To be honest, KK, it must be difficult for some of the Government as a fair proportion of them voted Remain, so to then have to take the country out cannot be straight forward nor easy. Not fully defending them at all but the sheer depth of the issues that face us need so much time to consider and debate. It doesn't help either when you have that wee Scottish dwarfie trying to get a second referendum and now Spain bringing Gibraltar into things. It would be hard for any Government to try and sort out, be it Tory, Labour or a coalition.

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 Post Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:56 am 
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gladbachwolf wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Agreement_on_German_External_Debts


Very interesting. Thanks for the info, suiging... :smt023


My pleasure mate.

Next time some long haired professor type tells you in the pub --- "what did we expect when we left the EU ? Of course we have to pay our debts like that nice German Chancellor said"

Stick this link up his arse. 8)

As an edit: I find it sad that we live in such a PC world that such historical fact seems taboo for our representatives to mention when vile hypocrisy drips from Berlin in every discussion about BREXIT.

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 Post Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:27 am 
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gladbachwolf wrote:
To be honest, KK, it must be difficult for some of the Government as a fair proportion of them voted Remain, so to then have to take the country out cannot be straight forward nor easy. Not fully defending them at all but the sheer depth of the issues that face us need so much time to consider and debate. It doesn't help either when you have that wee Scottish dwarfie trying to get a second referendum and now Spain bringing Gibraltar into things. It would be hard for any Government to try and sort out, be it Tory, Labour or a coalition.


Totally agree. The thought of Jezza and his squeeze leading the negotiations is enough to give anyone nightmares.

The term negotiations is the key here. The playing field will change on each and every occasion the two sides meet. Positions held today will change tomorrow. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a babbling fool. I'm afraid Knockers lot will point to each and every day's position as sacrosanct, using the inevitable u-turns and strategic withdrawals (and advances ) as examples of incompetency, completely showing a lack of understanding of the process......init :roll:

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 Post Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:01 am 
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I believe as we progress through the minefield of negotiations the right wing of the Conservative party will become exposed for what they are chancers.

These negotiations will take a different path to what they had imagined, but those chancers will still be pressing the wrong buttons.

Fortunately the European press can get their message heard so the right wing rabble of the UK press and the BBC can also be exposed as Conservative propaganda.

Over time I fully expect Liam Fox to get the boot from negotiations, the blokes just not very competent.

The best bets would be someone like David Cameron who knows the Europeans well enough and would command a semblance of respect.
I would add Lord Hill alongside Cameron because the chancers negotiating for the UK just look very weak and not up for the challenge.

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 Post Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:35 pm 
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First we hint about withholding information on terrorist attacks, now we're talking about going to war with Spain. Negotiation masterclass from May et al.

Is this the type of people we want to project ourselves as to the world?


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 Post Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:45 pm 
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suiging wrote:


Aye. Just for fun look up "The London Agreement On German External Debt". See how we bent over backwards to allow them to flourish and put aside war debt which would have crippled them for ever. They have short memories ( or perhaps they don't, with revenge a dish best served cold ).


You know why this agreement was done, right? it was the shitty deal we forced on Germany after WW1 which directly led to their financial ruin and the rise of Hitler and the start of WW2.

This was mostly done to prevent the same thing happening again and to prevent another war. Nothing to do with us 'doing Germany a favour'. Crippling a major European neighbour would have achieved what exactly? Look how America helped Japan rebuild after the war. Keeping their economy fucked out of some need for petty revenge does no one any favours.


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 Post Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:41 am 
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SpaceMonkey wrote:
First we hint about withholding information on terrorist attacks, now we're talking about going to war with Spain. Negotiation masterclass from May et al.

Is this the type of people we want to project ourselves as to the world?


Tories have had their own way in the UK for half a century because by working hand in hand with the media they have manipulated the publics view.

They dont like it when another more powerful political block says NO and has hissy fits.

Michael Howard wont be the last as we see Tories previously stating.. they need us as much as we need them, finding the reality totally different.

So who do the Tories blame when their economy goes down the plug hole, anyone but themselves, masters at it.

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 Post Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:48 am 
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SpaceMonkey wrote:
suiging wrote:


Aye. Just for fun look up "The London Agreement On German External Debt". See how we bent over backwards to allow them to flourish and put aside war debt which would have crippled them for ever. They have short memories ( or perhaps they don't, with revenge a dish best served cold ).


You know why this agreement was done, right? it was the shitty deal we forced on Germany after WW1 which directly led to their financial ruin and the rise of Hitler and the start of WW2.

This was mostly done to prevent the same thing happening again and to prevent another war. Nothing to do with us 'doing Germany a favour'. Crippling a major European neighbour would have achieved what exactly? Look how America helped Japan rebuild after the war. Keeping their economy fucked out of some need for petty revenge does no one any favours.


"We" were not the architects of Versailles. As much as 1960's history teachers attempted to picture us as having power, Woodrow Wilson pretty much did what he liked. "We" attempted to moderate HIS quest for vengeance or in reality his quest to wipe away all opposition to American industrial domination. Your final sentence should surely also apply to Brussels ? Or are they morally allowed petty vengeance after Brexit ? ( for Brussels read Germany).

It is true the USA wished the then West Germany to survive as a buffer state against the Soviet Union. It is also true they watched their "friends" continue with rationing well after the war and watched their "friends" lose their industrial edge hide bound in victorian brick; much of which was war damaged, unable to be repaired as we were still paying back "our friends" for them being kind enough to enter WW2 and "lend" us weapons to fight the war until they deemed it safe to swarm in and claim the spoils.

There will be nothing our friends across the water will enjoy more than watching the Europeans gang up on this little Island again. All rather dejavu .....I just wonder what we will have to pay them this time. My one major Brexit worry.

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 Post Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:52 am 
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SpaceMonkey wrote:
First we hint about withholding information on terrorist attacks, now we're talking about going to war with Spain. Negotiation masterclass from May et al.

Is this the type of people we want to project ourselves as to the world?


No and yes.

Ms May said that if there was no deal, cooperation on security fronts would be hampered. Simple truth. It wont be stopped, but naturally it would be hampered.

The good folk of Gib voted with a majority of 99% to remain under the British umbrella of sovereignty.
If the French invaded the Channel Islands what would you do ? Suggest we just let them against the will of free British citizens...

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 Post Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:29 pm 
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suiging wrote:

The good folk of Gib voted with a majority of 99% to remain under the British umbrella of sovereignty.
If the French invaded the Channel Islands what would you do ? Suggest we just let them against the will of free British citizens...


I don't understand. Spain has mentioned nothing about invading anyone.

If Gib want to be under our sovereignty then they have to accept they will no longer be part of the EU either. Which means the EU (Spain) have every right to dictate what any trade deal will look like and to protect their border.

The EU have all the power here. What are the UK going to do if the EU say no? Not leave the EU? ha.

The UK have pissed off a number of EU nations over the years. Now it's payback time. I don't take any joy from that, but it doesn't change the fact it's true.
Remember in 1985 when the UK blocked Spain from joining the EU if they didn't open the border to Gib? "What goes around comes around" is a saying that works for countries as well as individuals.


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 Post Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:02 am 
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SpaceMonkey wrote:
suiging wrote:

The good folk of Gib voted with a majority of 99% to remain under the British umbrella of sovereignty.
If the French invaded the Channel Islands what would you do ? Suggest we just let them against the will of free British citizens...


I don't understand. Spain has mentioned nothing about invading anyone.

If Gib want to be under our sovereignty then they have to accept they will no longer be part of the EU either. Which means the EU (Spain) have every right to dictate what any trade deal will look like and to protect their border.

The EU have all the power here. What are the UK going to do if the EU say no? Not leave the EU? ha.

The UK have pissed off a number of EU nations over the years. Now it's payback time. I don't take any joy from that, but it doesn't change the fact it's true.
Remember in 1985 when the UK blocked Spain from joining the EU if they didn't open the border to Gib? "What goes around comes around" is a saying that works for countries as well as individuals.


The one thing for sure is it is all just bluff from both sides. Just like 1982.

Gibraltar was ceded to the United Kingdom in perpetuity in the early eighteenth century. Long before the United States was created. Using Spanish logic, can we get the USA back just because we're still smarting from it's loss ? There is more than one way to invade. Hong Kong, up to Boundary Street (aptly named) on the Kowloon Peninsula was likewise ceded to the UK for ever. The myth that we had to give it all back in 1997 was just that, a myth. However, the Chinese in negotiations with a jingoistic Thatcher , said give it all back, or keep it. If you keep it, we will cut off water supplies, food supplies and close all borders. We had little choice. The Spanish are/will try the same thing. That is one thing and as you say, what goes around comes around.. Having Brussels do it for them completely another matter. Europe tried this with the Germans. "Sorry Czechs, you have to give up the Sudetenland. Sorry Poland, you have to give up your whole country". I thought this pressure on sovereignty was why we fought the Nazis in the first place. Perhaps as you say, just give in. Let's see if appeasement works this time.

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 Post Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:18 pm 
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You're right. The 99-year lease was more just a way for China to save face. Hong Kong was never meant to be given back. But the Hong Kong issue just showed how insignificant the UK is on the world stage. How can we stand up to China? (or the USA, or Russia, or in the near future India and probably Brazil if they can sort out their government stability in the long run).

Beating a financially crippled country (at the time) in Argentina might have massaged the country's collective ego, but every time we've come up against anything of difficulty we've basically lost out, for a long time now.

I've always favoured more integration with the EU not less. Maybe even on the federal level. Collectively we would be bigger than China and the USA in terms of strength. An eventually EU wide army would have just made that more so.

The EU is going through a tough time right now, no doubt. Why I found it almost incredulous that Cameron choose this exact moment to have the referendum. But I still feel it was the best future for this country to stay in the EU long term.

If we ever re-enter the EU. We'll never be given the veto's we have now, or the rebate.


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 Post Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:06 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
I believe as we progress through the minefield of negotiations the right wing of the Conservative party will become exposed for what they are chancers.

These negotiations will take a different path to what they had imagined, but those chancers will still be pressing the wrong buttons.

Fortunately the European press can get their message heard so the right wing rabble of the UK press and the BBC can also be exposed as Conservative propaganda.

Over time I fully expect Liam Fox to get the boot from negotiations, the blokes just not very competent.

The best bets would be someone like David Cameron who knows the Europeans well enough and would command a semblance of respect.
I would add Lord Hill alongside Cameron because the chancers negotiating for the UK just look very weak and not up for the challenge.


hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha - comedy gold


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 Post Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:15 pm 
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SpaceMonkey wrote:
You're right. The 99-year lease was more just a way for China to save face. Hong Kong was never meant to be given back. But the Hong Kong issue just showed how insignificant the UK is on the world stage. How can we stand up to China? (or the USA, or Russia, or in the near future India and probably Brazil if they can sort out their government stability in the long run).

Beating a financially crippled country (at the time) in Argentina might have massaged the country's collective ego, but every time we've come up against anything of difficulty we've basically lost out, for a long time now.

I've always favoured more integration with the EU not less. Maybe even on the federal level. Collectively we would be bigger than China and the USA in terms of strength. An eventually EU wide army would have just made that more so.

The EU is going through a tough time right now, no doubt. Why I found it almost incredulous that Cameron choose this exact moment to have the referendum. But I still feel it was the best future for this country to stay in the EU long term.

If we ever re-enter the EU. We'll never be given the veto's we have now, or the rebate.


Rule Britannia hey ...


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 Post Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:35 am 
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SpaceMonkey wrote:
suiging wrote:

The good folk of Gib voted with a majority of 99% to remain under the British umbrella of sovereignty.
If the French invaded the Channel Islands what would you do ? Suggest we just let them against the will of free British citizens...


I don't understand. Spain has mentioned nothing about invading anyone.

If Gib want to be under our sovereignty then they have to accept they will no longer be part of the EU either. Which means the EU (Spain) have every right to dictate what any trade deal will look like and to protect their border.

The EU have all the power here. What are the UK going to do if the EU say no? Not leave the EU? ha.

The UK have pissed off a number of EU nations over the years. Now it's payback time. I don't take any joy from that, but it doesn't change the fact it's true.
Remember in 1985 when the UK blocked Spain from joining the EU if they didn't open the border to Gib? "What goes around comes around" is a saying that works for countries as well as individuals.


But the referendum was not about my views on the EU or even yours. It was the democratically voted for will of the people as a collective, and as such needs to be carried out with the best deal for all of the citizens of the United Kingdom. That includes me, you, the Scots and the Gibraltarians. I always find it strange that those we claim to be liberals with a small "l" and are first on the streets to fight the "facist dictators" are the one's who now firmly stand against the democratic process....... as they lost. All a bit Animal Farm. Everyone's equal, but some are more equal than others.

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 Post Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:20 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
I believe as we progress through the minefield of negotiations the right wing of the Conservative party will become exposed for what they are chancers.

These negotiations will take a different path to what they had imagined, but those chancers will still be pressing the wrong buttons.

Fortunately the European press can get their message heard so the right wing rabble of the UK press and the BBC can also be exposed as Conservative propaganda.

Over time I fully expect Liam Fox to get the boot from negotiations, the blokes just not very competent.

The best bets would be someone like David Cameron who knows the Europeans well enough and would command a semblance of respect.
I would add Lord Hill alongside Cameron because the chancers negotiating for the UK just look very weak and not up for the challenge.

Am I to discern from these ramblings that,not only could you teach the professional football managers
how to manage to your exacting standards,but you could advise the government regarding who should negotiate our withdrawal.
Your confidence seemingly knows no limitations,or could it be delusion? Who knows ?
You WAS joking about lord hill, yes ?


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 Post Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:41 am 
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wolfrunna wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
I believe as we progress through the minefield of negotiations the right wing of the Conservative party will become exposed for what they are chancers.

These negotiations will take a different path to what they had imagined, but those chancers will still be pressing the wrong buttons.

Fortunately the European press can get their message heard so the right wing rabble of the UK press and the BBC can also be exposed as Conservative propaganda.

Over time I fully expect Liam Fox to get the boot from negotiations, the blokes just not very competent.

The best bets would be someone like David Cameron who knows the Europeans well enough and would command a semblance of respect.
I would add Lord Hill alongside Cameron because the chancers negotiating for the UK just look very weak and not up for the challenge.

Am I to discern from these ramblings that,not only could you teach the professional football managers
how to manage to your exacting standards,but you could advise the government regarding who should negotiate our withdrawal.
Your confidence seemingly knows no limitations,or could it be delusion? Who knows ?
You WAS joking about lord hill, yes ?


Do you really expect a considered reply when you approach the thread in such a way.

Athazagoraphobia

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 Post Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:43 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
Athazagoraphobia


Do I know you?

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 Post Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:47 pm 
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Left back wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
Athazagoraphobia


Do I know you?[/quo

I had that. Antibiotics and rest

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 Post Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:05 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
wolfrunna wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
I believe as we progress through the minefield of negotiations the right wing of the Conservative party will become exposed for what they are chancers.

These negotiations will take a different path to what they had imagined, but those chancers will still be pressing the wrong buttons.

Fortunately the European press can get their message heard so the right wing rabble of the UK press and the BBC can also be exposed as Conservative propaganda.

Over time I fully expect Liam Fox to get the boot from negotiations, the blokes just not very competent.

The best bets would be someone like David Cameron who knows the Europeans well enough and would command a semblance of respect.
I would add Lord Hill alongside Cameron because the chancers negotiating for the UK just look very weak and not up for the challenge.

Am I to discern from these ramblings that,not only could you teach the professional football managers
how to manage to your exacting standards,but you could advise the government regarding who should negotiate our withdrawal.
Your confidence seemingly knows no limitations,or could it be delusion? Who knows ?
You WAS joking about lord hill, yes ?


Do you really expect a considered reply when you approach the thread in such a way.

Athazagoraphobia


Who could forget you knocker.
My response was in response to your apparent estimation of your opinion.
Frankly you project a know it all attitude that is not only regarding your critical analysis
of football but has flowed into government and the business of brexit.
Whatever you say to me is ok knocker,no offense will be taken.
Its just a loff ay it ?


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 Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:10 am 
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]I believe as we progress through the minefield of negotiations the right wing of the Conservative party will become exposed for what they are chancers.

These negotiations will take a different path to what they had imagined, but those chancers will still be pressing the wrong buttons.

Fortunately the European press can get their message heard so the right wing rabble of the UK press and the BBC can also be exposed as Conservative propaganda.

Over time I fully expect Liam Fox to get the boot from negotiations, the blokes just not very competent.

The best bets would be someone like David Cameron who knows the Europeans well enough and would command a semblance of respect.
I would add Lord Hill alongside Cameron because the chancers negotiating for the UK just look very weak and not up for the challenge.[/quote]
Am I to discern from these ramblings that,not only could you teach the professional football managers
how to manage to your exacting standards,but you could advise the government regarding who should negotiate our withdrawal.
Your confidence seemingly knows no limitations,or could it be delusion? Who knows ?
You WAS joking about lord hill, yes ?[/quote]

Do you really expect a considered reply when you approach the thread in such a way.

Athazagoraphobia[/quote]

Who could forget you knocker.
My response was in response to your apparent estimation of your opinion.
Frankly you project a know it all attitude that is not only regarding your critical analysis
of football but has flowed into government and the business of brexit.
Whatever you say to me is ok knocker,no offense will be taken.
Its just a loff ay it ?[/quote]

I offer views, I get some right I get some wrong, I hold other peoples views in mind, as Aristotle once remarked.
Then we move on.

_________________
he first twenty years of life contain the whole of experience. The rest is observation. Graham Greene

If team culture is weak losing divides the team. If team culture is strong, losing creates the hunger to win again. Either way culture rules.


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 Post Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 7:25 am 
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1 May 1328. The Wars of Scottish Independence ended. England recognised the Kingdom of Scotland as an independent state.

_________________
he first twenty years of life contain the whole of experience. The rest is observation. Graham Greene

If team culture is weak losing divides the team. If team culture is strong, losing creates the hunger to win again. Either way culture rules.


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