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 Post Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:10 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
suiging wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
One of the key reasons the EU just don't cut the UK loose as a lost cause, a basket case.

They fear Trump running the country, some things never change the French in the sixties veto'd the UK entry because they feared America entering through the back door.


You have no concept of modern history. Look up post-war US/UK relations.


I'm fully aware of Charles de Gaulle and his concerns with America taking over the European project during its infancy.


And the role played by Jacques Delors in shaping its direction.


ahhh the beauty of Google...


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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:27 am 
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]One of the key reasons the EU just don't cut the UK loose as a lost cause, a basket case.

They fear Trump running the country, some things never change the French in the sixties veto'd the UK entry because they feared America entering through the back door.[/quote]

You have no concept of modern history. Look up post-war US/UK relations.[/quote]

I'm fully aware of Charles de Gaulle and his concerns with America taking over the European project during its infancy.


And the role played by Jacques Delors in shaping its direction.[/quote]

ahhh the beauty of Google...[/quote]

Nope, The beauty of books, and reading thousands of them through the decades.

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:37 am 
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I see even the Luxembourg PM has resorted to taking advantage of the anti-Brexit rhetoric that is following Johnson around now- the smug tw@t.

A bit like Tusks have cake and eat it but no cherrys comment .. this does nought to the British spirit except strengthen it.

There will be a 'special place in hell' for those that openly mock as this does not help resolve this at all.

Xavier Bettel can just ....fuck off!


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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:51 am 
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Johnson was obviously channelling the episode of the Incredible Hulk where a small group of people shout things at him and the Hulk runs away...

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:11 am 
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shropswolf wrote:
Johnson was obviously channelling the episode of the Incredible Hulk where a small group of people shout things at him and the Hulk runs away...


In this particular case I'm totally with Bozza. He was openly, and blatantly being hi-jacked, and chose not to allow it to happen. Good on him.

I'm afraid being belittled by Luxemburg, should never be on a United Kingdom's Prime Minister's agenda.

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:02 pm 
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shropswolf wrote:
Johnson was obviously channelling the episode of the Incredible Hulk where a small group of people shout things at him and the Hulk runs away...


I'd rather it have been the episode when he kicks all their arses and shoves that smug tw@t head first into the podium with the microphone up his arse ...sideways ...still we can't have everything.


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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:46 pm 
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davejonesears wrote:
I see even the Luxembourg PM has resorted to taking advantage of the anti-Brexit rhetoric that is following Johnson around now- the smug tw@t.

A bit like Tusks have cake and eat it but no cherrys comment .. this does nought to the British spirit except strengthen it.

There will be a 'special place in hell' for those that openly mock as this does not help resolve this at all.

Xavier Bettel can just ....fuck off!


I have next to no interest with these side shows, its this kind of crappy soap opera stuff that pisses me off with the British media.
The focus and headline news should be charting Brexit developments or lack of them.

These sideshows are the smoke and mirrors that take your attention away from what really matters.

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:56 am 
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Now the house is back use the time well.

VOTE ON THE KINNOCK AMENDMENT.

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:21 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
Now the house is back use the time well.

VOTE ON THE KINNOCK AMENDMENT.



No. Vote for a General Election. Let the electorate tell this bunch of muppets what they think of them.

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:21 am 
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The Kinnock amendment will never succeed because of the loophole it opens up. It puts the Benn Bill out of effect and "passes" the WA, but then the government can theoretically delay and hinder the subsequent bill required to put the WA into actual effect.

This is why the government put up no tellers on the Kinnock amendment vote in the first place, but the loophole is now clear.

Labour had three chances to pass a deal and Corbyn whipped his MPs against doing so at every turn.

Only a tiny handful of Labour MPs resisted and actually implemented the manifesto Labour stood on at the last election i.e. to respect the referendum result and to leave the EU with a deal in place.

I'd say, judging by the hostility in the HoC last night, that there is zero hope of Johnson bringing any deal back and successfully passing it in October - but that is probably known by the government all along so now it's blame shifting.

Johnson and his band of merry Eton men are now openly trolling the house to prevent them being able to vote for his reheated Theresa May deal.

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:17 pm 
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it's become nought but a mud slinging pathetic childish place - they couldn't pass water never mind a bil worthy of the name.

I think the only way out of this is a General Election-& I'm not even sure that will work

its irrelevent anyway as it seems thats not going to happen unless Boris rules out a no deal- & he's not going to do that either.

The ridicolous fixed term act has produced a political impasee-and I for one am heartliy sick of listening to it.

I no longer have any interest whatsoever in listening to any of the bullshit these @rses spout- you got more sense out of the Chuckle brothers.


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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:56 pm 
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I'm listening to the usual liberal leaning debate on the radio saying that the current climate in the House is making the Brexit issue become binary ?

I honestly thought it always was? It certainly was made clear in the government hand-out in 2016, in or out. with parliament to a man, saying they would honour the decision. What's changed is the duplicitous House, pretending this never happened.

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:29 pm 
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davejonesears wrote:
it's become nought but a mud slinging pathetic childish place - they couldn't pass water never mind a bil worthy of the name.

I think the only way out of this is a General Election-& I'm not even sure that will work

its irrelevent anyway as it seems thats not going to happen unless Boris rules out a no deal- & he's not going to do that either.

The ridicolous fixed term act has produced a political impasee-and I for one am heartliy sick of listening to it.

I no longer have any interest whatsoever in listening to any of the bullshit these @rses spout- you got more sense out of the Chuckle brothers.


Spot on. I am sick of listening to these soppy aresholes whining on about such vicious and evil phrases such as "Big Girls Blouse", "Traitor", "Humbug" and wetting their nappies over language used in the house.
Let them swap places with the people who work in the custody blocks of any Police station in any city in the Midlands for a mere weekend, let them see what real verbal abuse and threat is outside of their velvet bubble.

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:29 pm 
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shropswolf wrote:
The Kinnock amendment will never succeed because of the loophole it opens up. It puts the Benn Bill out of effect and "passes" the WA, but then the government can theoretically delay and hinder the subsequent bill required to put the WA into actual effect.

This is why the government put up no tellers on the Kinnock amendment vote in the first place, but the loophole is now clear.

Labour had three chances to pass a deal and Corbyn whipped his MPs against doing so at every turn.

Only a tiny handful of Labour MPs resisted and actually implemented the manifesto Labour stood on at the last election i.e. to respect the referendum result and to leave the EU with a deal in place.

I'd say, judging by the hostility in the HoC last night, that there is zero hope of Johnson bringing any deal back and successfully passing it in October - but that is probably known by the government all along so now it's blame shifting.

Johnson and his band of merry Eton men are now openly trolling the house to prevent them being able to vote for his reheated Theresa May deal.


Cheers Shrops, I understand a little more by the day.
Even so people like me with limited understanding of the complex nature of withdrawal shouldn't be voting on such matters. Should we?

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:59 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
shropswolf wrote:
The Kinnock amendment will never succeed because of the loophole it opens up. It puts the Benn Bill out of effect and "passes" the WA, but then the government can theoretically delay and hinder the subsequent bill required to put the WA into actual effect.

This is why the government put up no tellers on the Kinnock amendment vote in the first place, but the loophole is now clear.

Labour had three chances to pass a deal and Corbyn whipped his MPs against doing so at every turn.

Only a tiny handful of Labour MPs resisted and actually implemented the manifesto Labour stood on at the last election i.e. to respect the referendum result and to leave the EU with a deal in place.

I'd say, judging by the hostility in the HoC last night, that there is zero hope of Johnson bringing any deal back and successfully passing it in October - but that is probably known by the government all along so now it's blame shifting.

Johnson and his band of merry Eton men are now openly trolling the house to prevent them being able to vote for his reheated Theresa May deal.


Cheers Shrops, I understand a little more by the day.
Even so people like me with limited understanding of the complex nature of withdrawal shouldn't be voting on such matters. Should we?



Most of us probably shouldn't on the basis of our knowledge but then neither should most MP's.

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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:48 am 
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The opt out negotiations.

30 September 1938, 2:00 am, Britain (Chamberlain) France (Daladier) Germany (Hitler) and Italy (Mussolini) signed the Munich Agreement, allowing Germany to occupy the Czech Sudetenland.

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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:17 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
The opt out negotiations.

30 September 1938, 2:00 am, Britain (Chamberlain) France (Daladier) Germany (Hitler) and Italy (Mussolini) signed the Munich Agreement, allowing Germany to occupy the Czech Sudetenland.


Not sure the relevance. This continual linkage of World War II in British culture to any dealings with foreign nations is a hindrance to the UK progressing, not a help. "The Surrender Bill" indeed...

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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:28 am 
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shropswolf wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
The opt out negotiations.

30 September 1938, 2:00 am, Britain (Chamberlain) France (Daladier) Germany (Hitler) and Italy (Mussolini) signed the Munich Agreement, allowing Germany to occupy the Czech Sudetenland.


Not sure the relevance. This continual linkage of World War II in British culture to any dealings with foreign nations is a hindrance to the UK progressing, not a help. "The Surrender Bill" indeed...


Thats exactly what it is.


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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:24 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
The opt out negotiations.

30 September 1938, 2:00 am, Britain (Chamberlain) France (Daladier) Germany (Hitler) and Italy (Mussolini) signed the Munich Agreement, allowing Germany to occupy the Czech Sudetenland.


I would have thought that was more akin to choosing to remain.

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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:04 pm 
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Left back wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
The opt out negotiations.

30 September 1938, 2:00 am, Britain (Chamberlain) France (Daladier) Germany (Hitler) and Italy (Mussolini) signed the Munich Agreement, allowing Germany to occupy the Czech Sudetenland.


I would have thought that was more akin to choosing to remain.


Exactly. A lovely example of European unity in shafting a junior partner.

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 Post Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:50 am 
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shropswolf wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
The opt out negotiations.

30 September 1938, 2:00 am, Britain (Chamberlain) France (Daladier) Germany (Hitler) and Italy (Mussolini) signed the Munich Agreement, allowing Germany to occupy the Czech Sudetenland.


Not sure the relevance. This continual linkage of World War II in British culture to any dealings with foreign nations is a hindrance to the UK progressing, not a help. "The Surrender Bill" indeed...


It made me wonder how the English press reported this at home in comparison to todays press.

Hitler through his links to the then Daily Mail owner probably got better copy than Barnier.

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 Post Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:27 am 
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There were quislings then as there are now.


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 Post Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:58 pm 
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Remainers and those seeking to exit with a deal are not quislings.

Exiting with a deal is - at the very least- equally as valid an interpretation of the referendum as leaving on no deal terms.

Gina Miller Dominic Grieve John Major are as patriotic and genuine protectors of the best interests of this country as anyone seeking a no deal Brexit. Reference to quislings and Second World War terminology exemplifies everything that is wrong with the debate. Those of us on the other side of the argument are every bit as patriotic for the best interests of the UK as you Brexiteers.


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 Post Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:46 pm 
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raggedwolf wrote:
Remainers and those seeking to exit with a deal are not quislings.

Exiting with a deal is - at the very least- equally as valid an interpretation of the referendum as leaving on no deal terms.

Gina Miller Dominic Grieve John Major are as patriotic and genuine protectors of the best interests of this country as anyone seeking a no deal Brexit. Reference to quislings and Second World War terminology exemplifies everything that is wrong with the debate. Those of us on the other side of the argument are every bit as patriotic for the best interests of the UK as you Brexiteers.


I agree that exiting with a deal is a valid option - and it may of course be the best option for all concenred.

However remaining is not, exiting with a no deal is the only option if a deal cannot be agreed.

Where I disagree is that there are those that have never had any intention other than remain , and I include those darlings of the Remainers you have mentioned above in that.

They have done all they can to push the UK tro remain under the pretence of 'wanting the best deal' surely that is obvious to all.

In fact to be honest the above have in my opinon by their pusuit of this belief done as much damage to the negotations as have -according to some-the ERG.

They have been complicit in undermining the UK's negotiating position from the start and as such I cannot consider them to have the UKs best interests at heart.

Whether they are quislings or patriotic- well thats for individuals to decide.

However there are those involved that would prefer to see the EU succeed than the UK, perhaps only so they could provide a smug self satified 'told you so ' retort , or pehaps for more subversive reasons.


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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:14 am 
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Pushing the country into constitutional crisis by wilfully and deliberately using any means possible to thwart the will of the people as illustrated by a legal referenda, mandated for and enacted by Parliament and constantly ignored by MPs who overwhelmingly, time after time, said they would honour the process, and who continue to do exactly the opposite, is not the behaviour pf patriots.

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:05 pm 
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Preventing a no deal Brexit which is not in the interests of ordinary people and which was not voted for and in doing so sacrificing their own careers as the rebel Toried have done-is the action of a patriot
Taking action to prevent the government breaking the law by suspending democracy- the actions of a patriot.
Continuing to campaign against Brexit as the Lib Dem’s have done believing it to be not in the best interests of the country- entirely reasonable.do you think Farage would have walked away and given up if he had lost. I don’t think so
The decision to take legal action is beyond reproach. 11-0 in the Supreme Court proves that beyond credible argument and the government brought that on itself.


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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:18 pm 
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raggedwolf wrote:
Preventing a no deal Brexit which is not in the interests of ordinary people and which was not voted for and in doing so sacrificing their own careers as the rebel Toried have done-is the action of a patriot
Taking action to prevent the government breaking the law by suspending democracy- the actions of a patriot.
Continuing to campaign against Brexit as the Lib Dem’s have done believing it to be not in the best interests of the country- entirely reasonable.do you think Farage would have walked away and given up if he had lost. I don’t think so
The decision to take legal action is beyond reproach. 11-0 in the Supreme Court proves that beyond credible argument and the government brought that on itself.


There only undeniable facts in all of this are:


Parilament voted to allow the referendum.
It was decreeed it would be a binary referendum - so as not to 'confuse people' & it was stated the vote would be honoured.
In the EU referendum in 2016 this country voted to leave.
Parliament then voted to accept this result & to implement Article 50.
None of the main parties stood on a 2017 manifesto to ignore the referendum result.
Since 2017 a large number of members of parliament seem to have forgotten everything they voted for before & have done everything possible to subvert this position (OK I accept that last bit may be just my opinion but facts back it up)

Everything else is opinion.

You are entitled to your opinion & I disagree with it.


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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:29 pm 
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Actually using the term patriotic is a red herring. Tommy the facist thinks he is a patriot, Compo the commie, thinks the same. The defectors, Labourites, and certainly the Lib/Dems think they are also Democrats. Their disdain for democracy, says otherwise. There is no such thing as a no deal Brexit. There is simply Brexit. The deals come after that event.

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:35 pm 
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There is a persistent implication on here and in the press that people who disagree with no deal Brexiteer siding with the EU against the UK. It is not true at all. I want the best for the UK as much as anyone who voted for Brexit as do all who question the path of the the current government

It is pretty apparent that there is nothing simple about Brexit. Three years of wasted time and effort for zero benefit shows that. If we leave without a deal there will be adverse consequences : the great majority of the business community the education community the medical community agree with that. The majority of people in Northern Ireland want a deal as do the majority of the Scots. Resisting no deal Brexit is entirely consistent with the referendum.


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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:28 am 
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raggedwolf wrote:
There is a persistent implication on here and in the press that people who disagree with no deal Brexiteer siding with the EU against the UK. It is not true at all. I want the best for the UK as much as anyone who voted for Brexit as do all who question the path of the the current government

It is pretty apparent that there is nothing simple about Brexit. Three years of wasted time and effort for zero benefit shows that. If we leave without a deal there will be adverse consequences : the great majority of the business community the education community the medical community agree with that. The majority of people in Northern Ireland want a deal as do the majority of the Scots. Resisting no deal Brexit is entirely consistent with the referendum.


i'm afraid we will have to disagree. The referendum was binary. Behind the smoke and mirrors that was made quite plain at the time. We are the United Kingdom (for now), the same leaflet explaining the binary choice and Parliament's pledge to respect the result, was sent out in Scotland and NI. That leaflet simply said the vote was about "In or out". If asked, the people of Lincolnshire, who probably have seen first hand what total immersion in the EU actually means, categorically voted leave and I assure you would want to see their will done, deal or no deal. If the United Kingdom would have voted remain, the folk in the East would have been massively hacked off, but would have had to accept the result. Or would they? Under your argument it is acceptable for any region of the UK to attempt by any means they can to stop the implementation of the will of the people as a whole....right ? Why does the people of Lincolnshire's desire to leave come what may, mean nothing compared to the people of Scotland ? Two thirds of constituencies voted to leave the EU. 52% of those prepared to vote, a majority, did the same. When will these simple facts sink in?

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