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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:20 am 
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I fully supported the Common Market. I am fully against the EU. Can a remainer please explain the benefits that republicanism in the form of the EU, with it's desire to make common foreign policy as decried from Brussels and establish by conscription ( read what the German's have said on this, scary stuff) a Euro Army to form a common defence without the good old US of A, didn't really go well in 1914 and 1939 did it ?

The remain argument is mostly about money. The ability to pop off to your holiday home and the ease of employing Volga to run the luvvies wine bar. I totally see in the short term we will suffer in this regard. However, the US, Australia, Singapore, Korea etc etc seem to do well with a global perspective, we as a global trading nation did the same. Why will an unelected Luxembourger look after my global interests better than someone I can replace if he/she's shit at home? ( well that was the theory until the Blair generated Supreme Court was allowed to rule)

Please tell me what remain actually means in the long-term, and why I will be better off with it. Note I used the remain "I" in the question. Brexit supports tend to argue about sovereignty and the country, as the nice remain lady from Bucks said on Five Live in the week " The EU has made ME feel European. It has made MY life easier, I don't want to have to show MY passport when I go to France".

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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:51 am 
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As a leave voter I have to now seek to remain because the leave negotiations have been taken over by right wing nut jobs.

There were better options available to leave, No political party advanced those better options.

It involves using experts due to the complete lack of intelligence in the UKs Parliament leaving the UK massively exposed.

If it wasn't for Ireland the EU would cut us loose and be done with us.

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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:47 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
As a leave voter I have to now seek to remain because the leave negotiations have been taken over by right wing nut jobs.

There were better options available to leave, No political party advanced those better options.

It involves using experts due to the complete lack of intelligence in the UKs Parliament leaving the UK massively exposed.

If it wasn't for Ireland the EU would cut us loose and be done with us.


I'm not sure there were any better options to leave tbh...not Norway model anyway.

Unfortunately many sides with differing reasons have made sure we have gotten to where we are now...& that includes the EU.

There has not been, nor ever will be a collective agreement, that is the nature of this beast.


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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:19 pm 
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So Johnson's new proposal has some backers at least.
I wonder if the EU will really consider it objectively-somehow I doubt it.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news ... 64278.html


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 Post Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:51 am 
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davejonesears wrote:
So Johnson's new proposal has some backers at least.
I wonder if the EU will really consider it objectively-somehow I doubt it.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news ... 64278.html



Barnier

the backstop is needed in order to respect the integrity of the Single Market and the EU's Customs Union
"Some people", he says, "think that we could have two different sets of rules on the island of Ireland and still avoid border checks. But Ireland is a member of the EU - and a proud member, I add. It is an active player, active, very active player, in the Single Market".

Thus says Barnier, "Goods that enter Ireland also enter the Single Market. It is called the 'Single' Market for a reason. So, since we all agree that we do not want a border, and since the UK agreed to respect Ireland's place in the Single Market, then that means goods entering Northern Ireland must comply with the rules of the Single Market and the Union Customs Code".

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 Post Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:15 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
davejonesears wrote:
So Johnson's new proposal has some backers at least.
I wonder if the EU will really consider it objectively-somehow I doubt it.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news ... 64278.html



Barnier

the backstop is needed in order to respect the integrity of the Single Market and the EU's Customs Union
"Some people", he says, "think that we could have two different sets of rules on the island of Ireland and still avoid border checks. But Ireland is a member of the EU - and a proud member, I add. It is an active player, active, very active player, in the Single Market".

Thus says Barnier, "Goods that enter Ireland also enter the Single Market. It is called the 'Single' Market for a reason. So, since we all agree that we do not want a border, and since the UK agreed to respect Ireland's place in the Single Market, then that means goods entering Northern Ireland must comply with the rules of the Single Market and the Union Customs Code".



As far as I am aware the Single Market and the Customs Union are two distinct things.
So you can ben in one wothout the other ...and Im not sure Johnsons solution was the Single Market for all things either?..

Also isn't our solution not border checks but checks away for goods etc ?

Anyway look its obvious from the get go that Irelands unique set of circumstances doesnt lend itself well to any solution that also respects OUR soverign nation & it's decision to leave other than staying in or no deal ...and we voted out ..its also obvious that we cannot easily seperate the WA from the Trade Deal.

As I have said numerous times on here the EU have dictated those constraints knowing full well anyone worth their salt wouldnt agree to them- and our parliamnet rejected them THREE times.

It is May subversive attempt to keep us subservient that has led to this impasse- she should have insisted the Trade Deal was done at the same time- she didnt ,she is history.

Also one final point ...bolox to Barnier.


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 Post Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:53 pm 
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The arrogance of the EU is simply mind numbing. They have no idea the hell the Protestant paramilitaries would bring to the party if forced into a Union with Eire.

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:11 am 
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The only thing I gained from yesterday is that Northern Ireland has to be in a Customs Union.

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:08 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
The only thing I gained from yesterday is that Northern Ireland has to be in a Customs Union.



Why ? Because the EU say so?No it doesn't.


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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:36 pm 
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so now we know what John Bercow -or is that Oliver Cromwell -is really about - as if we didnt all know already- does he have a mandate to conduct these private discussions? as Speaker?

What else does he discuss and is this showing impartiality- I think this shows him in his true light...the w@nker.

What interests me is why they mention the interests of European citizens - that doent bother me at all.- but if the President of the European Parliament is bothered about a disorerly Brexit why doesn't he do something about it.

Sassoli in Bercow: '' An extension of Brexit is necessary in case of referendum or elections. ''

"Any request for an extension of the withdrawal period by the British government should be used to give voice to the British people, by referendum or by parliamentary elections." This was the message of David Sassoli, President of the European Parliament, after his meeting with John Bercow, Speaker of the House of Commons. President Sassoli said the two options - referendum and parliamentary elections - were included in the resolution adopted by the European Parliament last September.

"John Bercow and I share the same view on the important role of our parliaments in the Brexit process. In addition, we are both aware that a disordered exit from the United Kingdom of the European Union would be contrary to the interests of British and European citizens. "


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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:54 am 
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davejonesears wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
The only thing I gained from yesterday is that Northern Ireland has to be in a Customs Union.



Why ? Because the EU say so?No it doesn't.


At worst you will end up with near complete alignment with tariffs.

Go on, leave with no deal then watch the EU put the squeeze on the Calais border crossing.

Soon your running back to the EU for a trade deal, but as an outsider.

At that point the EU will do the deal on their terms, Ireland first, money owed second, workers rights third.

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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:59 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
davejonesears wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
The only thing I gained from yesterday is that Northern Ireland has to be in a Customs Union.



Why ? Because the EU say so?No it doesn't.
'

At worst you will end up with near complete alignment with tariffs.

Go on, leave with no deal then watch the EU put the squeeze on the Calais border crossing.

Soon your running back to the EU for a trade deal, but as an outsider.

At that point the EU will do the deal on their terms, Ireland first, money owed second, workers rights third.


The port of Calis has already been on record as saying they are perfectly ready - they had to to head off those that were talking about needing to use other ports.

Unless of course you are suggesting the EU would be so vindictive as to delay on purpose to 'teach us a lesson' surely you can't be suggesting such spiteful actions from our 'friends and allies' could you?

I actually believe we are better off exiting now - no deal - and then renegotiting from a completely even start point.

Unless of course you are suggesting that the EU would be so vindictive in a trade deal as to cut their nose off to spite their face to 'teach us a lesson' .
Surely you can't be suggesting such spiteful actions from our 'friends and allies' could you?

If you think the EU once we are out would place the same onus on Eire as they are doing now whilst they don't want us to leave - you are deluded.

We woulD be in no less a psoition of strength then as we are now - indeed I think we could have a stronger hand - if ,at the that point, the remainers actually accepted the position we would be in ...thats a big IF.


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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:01 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
davejonesears wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
The only thing I gained from yesterday is that Northern Ireland has to be in a Customs Union.



Why ? Because the EU say so?No it doesn't.
'

At worst you will end up with near complete alignment with tariffs.

Go on, leave with no deal then watch the EU put the squeeze on the Calais border crossing.

Soon your running back to the EU for a trade deal, but as an outsider.

At that point the EU will do the deal on their terms, Ireland first, money owed second, workers rights third.


The port of Calis has already been on record as saying they are perfectly ready - they had to to head off those that were talking about needing to use other ports.

Unless of course you are suggesting the EU would be so vindictive as to delay on purpose to 'teach us a lesson' surely you can't be suggesting such spiteful actions from our 'friends and allies' could you?

I actually believe we are better off exiting now - no deal - and then renegotiting from a completely even start point.

Unless of course you are suggesting that the EU would be so vindictive in a trade deal as to cut their nose off to spite their face to 'teach us a lesson' .
Surely you can't be suggesting such spiteful actions from our 'friends and allies' could you?

If you think the EU once we are out would place the same onus on Eire as they are doing now whilst they don't want us to leave - you are deluded.

We woulD be in no less a psoition of strength then as we are now - indeed I think we could have a stronger hand - if ,at the that point, the remainers actually accepted the position we would be in ...thats a big IF.


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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:31 am 
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The point on Calais key. The EU and it's supporters will tell you post-Brexit the sky will fall. When push comes to shove, politicians will point to the likes of the ports collapsing into anarchy and disaster. The reality, much like the reality with many other Chicken Little scenarios, is that commerce and trade will prevail. It always does.

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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:58 am 
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suiging wrote:
The point on Calais key. The EU and it's supporters will tell you post-Brexit the sky will fall. When push comes to shove, politicians will point to the likes of the ports collapsing into anarchy and disaster. The reality, much like the reality with many other Chicken Little scenarios, is that commerce and trade will prevail. It always does.


The likes of Germany with a far better balanced economy than the UK would suffer far more if they allowed the key rules and regulations of the EU to be changed.

Germany will take a smaller economic hit by standing strong within the EU trading block.

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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:27 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
suiging wrote:
The point on Calais key. The EU and it's supporters will tell you post-Brexit the sky will fall. When push comes to shove, politicians will point to the likes of the ports collapsing into anarchy and disaster. The reality, much like the reality with many other Chicken Little scenarios, is that commerce and trade will prevail. It always does.


The likes of Germany with a far better balanced economy than the UK would suffer far more if they allowed the key rules and regulations of the EU to be changed.

Germany will take a smaller economic hit by standing strong within the EU trading block.


Germany are in recession

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:31 pm 
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Are we in favour of the deal?

Will it go through or will the DUP scupper it?

Answers on a postcard...


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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:47 am 
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The DUP will scupper it I fear. All bigotry in Ireland, always been a boil on the arse of the UK this last century. How long will it be before the break up of the UK and Scotland and Ireland rule themselves leaving just England having MP's in the Westminster Parliament? I also think that Brexit will not go through and the current shower of MP's will win a vote on a second referendum. That will be held and Leave will win the majority again, and back we then go to the selfish idealist MP's at Westminster who will get the Supreme Court on looking into ways of stopping Brexit yet again. Groundhog Day in the UK. Something has to give but who will compromise and when, if ever, will it happen?? Political paralysis strangling the UK economy and worldwide reputation. I am getting ready with plans to emigrate from my land of birth and residence as I am slowly losing patience and enjoyment of retirement in this divided and hateful society. Brexit, useless politicians, knife crime, Extinction Rebellion...….bah humbug..!!

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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:19 am 
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Corbyn - deal worse than Theresa May's
Swinson - I will continue to do all I can to prevent Brexit
Foster - Cannot support deal as it stands.

What's changed?

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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:48 pm 
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Left back wrote:
Corbyn - deal worse than Theresa May's
Swinson - I will continue to do all I can to prevent Brexit
Foster - Cannot support deal as it stands.

What's changed?


The only thing that has changed is that Johnson can with some credibility claim that he has managed to remove the backstop, which was the central pillar of his leadership campaign promises.

In that sense, he has actually delivered and demonstrated some credibility in a negotiating situation, which he will use to position himself in GE election as the right man to lead future trade negotiations on UK's behalf in comparison to Corbyn who has no record of negotiating success.

The parliamentary arithmetic of course remains horrendous for any PM getting a deal through. In this aspect, Johnson has shown himself to be less than the tactician in throwing out 21 members of his party and creating a -43 minority government, while being fully aware that the Fixed-Term Parliament Act would not allow him the escape hatch of an election on his own terms. An own goal.

Corbyn will be whipping for no-deal again as the Labour strategy has always been to force the Tories to own the chaos of a no-deal with an election as far into the chaos as possible or to string out leaving as long as possible that the Tories are the ones to feel the Brexiteers' wrath in the polls. This are Corbyn's only conceivable chances of every winning over a majority of the electorate, by being able to look more competent as the untested vs. chaos of the incumbent.

He has already claimed this is a worse deal, yet hasn't read it (as he did not read May's deal either), or given any reasons for why the deal is unacceptable or worse, aside from it not being his own fantasy wishlist.

I expect a GE will be agreed within the next 3 weeks.

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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:21 pm 
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This deal has been achieved with the Benn Act firmly on the neck of Boris during the process, and yet he still managed some level of compromise. If accepted, without the Benn fiasco, who knows what can be done in favour of our country in the future.

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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:03 pm 
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Don't feel relieved yet as the VAR committee run by Gina Miller and supported by The Lib Dems, Labour and the SNP will disallow the goal. Add the DUP rejection in and this is not going to have the votes it needs to get through successfully. Parliament was bleating about not getting to a No Deal scenario and even now, despite compromise from both sides, they still will not back it. What on earth do they want then..??? No Brexit, that's what they want. The people want the country to move on, the MP's will not allow it. So, even with a General Election or a Second Referendum that would see us probably vote to leave, Opposition MP's, the DUP and/or the judiciary will stymy it. Death by a thousand cuts.

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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:17 pm 
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I think there is a way through here. If the deal is rejected as it probably will be then there will be an election

Boris can then campaign on a platform of : vote for me and I will take us out and I have a deal so it won’t be a crash out with no deal. That would win a substantial majority as Many Remainers would support that to bring an end to the saga. Faced with that Labour would be annihilated so he wouldn’t need the DUP.


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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:21 pm 
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raggedwolf wrote:
I think there is a way through here. If the deal is rejected as it probably will be then there will be an election

Boris can then campaign on a platform of : vote for me and I will take us out and I have a deal so it won’t be a crash out with no deal. That would win a substantial majority as Many Remainers would support that to bring an end to the saga. Faced with that Labour would be annihilated so he wouldn’t need the DUP.


I think that sounds plausible but the threat of all those lost votes to Farage Ltd. if a GE occurs while the UK is still in the EU may cause Cummings to pursue a no-deal or vague policy in the GE campaign, rather than a "here's the deal in my hand, just give a majority to get it passed" approach.

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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:51 am 
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shropswolf wrote:
raggedwolf wrote:
I think there is a way through here. If the deal is rejected as it probably will be then there will be an election

Boris can then campaign on a platform of : vote for me and I will take us out and I have a deal so it won’t be a crash out with no deal. That would win a substantial majority as Many Remainers would support that to bring an end to the saga. Faced with that Labour would be annihilated so he wouldn’t need the DUP.


I think that sounds plausible but the threat of all those lost votes to Farage Ltd. if a GE occurs while the UK is still in the EU may cause Cummings to pursue a no-deal or vague policy in the GE campaign, rather than a "here's the deal in my hand, just give a majority to get it passed" approach.


The hated BNP have done things between GE's in the past. When it comes to a choice between Boris or Jezza on a ballot sheet, Farage will not get as many as you think and likewise not as many die hard Labour, but Corbyn haters, will be able t0 vote Tory. The difference with this GE will be the number of past Labour voters and past Tories, who abstain. The fight for the middle ground will be bitter.

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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:48 pm 
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I think the DUP have a valid arguement tbh.

The GFA has a veto for both Unionists & Republicans - i.e a majority on both 'sides' is needed.

This was the only way they could get it agreed ,I assume they hoped time and the GFA would soften
enough positions.

Boris' deal does not provide the same 'consent' capability & the underlying issue is that a simple majority favours the republicans.

This does indeed undermine the spirit of the GFA, and is something the unionists will not countenance.

As the EU & Eire have continued to use the GFA as a blocker to the UK leaving I cannot see why they would not simply allow the same 'consent agreement' as in the GFA itself?

Unless of course it favoured them...oh wait hang on it does.

I would have thought a simple referendum requesting authority to continue with the CU arrangements -at the same time as a GE for example - would be a better and more democratic mechanism in this instance.


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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:55 pm 
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If he can't get it through without the DUP he may go back to the EU.
If he can't get it through even with the DUP then a GE is needed.
i think Boris will say this is the deal - but f this can't get through we advocate a no deal.
That way he may get Brexit party on side- as there are those North Labour Brexit seats that will never vote Tory.

BTW why are we suddenly seeing increased visibility (in media) for 'calls' & for a second referendum?


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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:15 pm 
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I can’t see Boris going back to no deal. It will be easier to recover Remainer Tories than Northern Labour voters. Think I said when he was elected that if he gets us out with a deal he hits the jackpot ang gets his Churchill moment
Have to disagree on the DUP
The majority of Northern Ireland voted Remain. The deal as negotiated actually gives Northern Ireland the best of all worlds. It’s just typical DUP bloody mindedness that means they are now throwing a strop now that for once they are not getting it all their own way having extorted money out of the rest of us for supporting the government Absolutely right they don’t get to control future Stormont votes


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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:41 am 
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The reality is the country is still unaware that we are just moving into the next stage of the process.

I guess the Tories have to test those theories around building free markets without regulations.

When they find out its impossible to replace what the UK now has within the EU its the people who will have suffered and will continue to suffer.

Lets see how many Labour ~~~~~~~, support Johnson today, fools.

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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:24 am 
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So the genius behind the poll tax and fixed term parliament act, Letwin, and the dwarf Bercow have decided to thwart Brexit, even with a good and fair deal.

Think the Queen needs to step in and dissolve this ludicrous parliament. Already that arse Bercow and that self satisfied lady judge Hale have badly damaged our constitution, enough is enough.

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