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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:25 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
So when we go to the polls once again the question asked of you will be.

Do you want a strong and stable leader like Jeremy Corbyn.

OR.

A coalition of chaos featuring the Tories and DUP.

That's the message which sweeps Jeremy into Downing Street.


yep - you can fool all of the people some of the time.


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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:13 pm 
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I think Deano should stand, ard vote fer im :lol:

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:26 pm 
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I am going to use my retirement as an Independent politician, without the two party shite etc.

I will call my party the Gladbach Independent Members Party..

Somehow though G.I.M.P does not sit well for some reason.. 8)

Vote GIMP.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:34 pm 
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gladbachwolf wrote:
I am going to use my retirement as an Independent politician, without the two party shite etc.

I will call my party the Gladbach Independent Members Party..

Somehow though G.I.M.P does not sit well for some reason.. 8)

Vote GIMP.


I will vote GIMP, providing you wear an all-in-one leather number, with the arse missing.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:37 pm 
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Embers wrote:
gladbachwolf wrote:
I am going to use my retirement as an Independent politician, without the two party shite etc.

I will call my party the Gladbach Independent Members Party..

Somehow though G.I.M.P does not sit well for some reason.. 8)

Vote GIMP.


I will vote GIMP, providing you wear an all-in-one leather number, with the arse missing.



You had to spoil it didn't you Embers...there was me trying to introduce a new political party and the topic gets side stepped into murky sexual undertones... 8) :lol: :mrgreen:

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:41 pm 
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gladbachwolf wrote:
Embers wrote:
gladbachwolf wrote:
I am going to use my retirement as an Independent politician, without the two party shite etc.

I will call my party the Gladbach Independent Members Party..

Somehow though G.I.M.P does not sit well for some reason.. 8)

Vote GIMP.


I will vote GIMP, providing you wear an all-in-one leather number, with the arse missing.



You had to spoil it didn't you Embers...there was me trying to introduce a new political party and the topic gets side stepped into murky sexual undertones... 8) :lol: :mrgreen:


I only do it for Moscow's benefit :wink:

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:06 pm 
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I will vote GIMP, providing you wear an all-in-one leather number, with the arse missing.[/quote]


You had to spoil it didn't you Embers...there was me trying to introduce a new political party and the topic gets side stepped into murky sexual undertones... 8) :lol: :mrgreen:[/quote]


I only do it for Moscow's benefit :wink:[/quote]

Got out of jail..free...

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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:39 am 
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shropswolf wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
So when we go to the polls once again the question asked of you will be.

Do you want a strong and stable leader like Jeremy Corbyn.

OR.

A coalition of chaos featuring the Tories and DUP.

That's the message which sweeps Jeremy into Downing Street.


But faced with the now realistic prospect of Corbyn as PM, the Tories who abandoned May will flock back: the Tories are only 9 seats short of a majority, Labour a whopping 64.

Of course, May will not be allowed to lead another election in any case.

Jezza profited from being up against the worst campaign from any incumbent in living history. And even with that, he is 64 seats short of the target.

There is no way the Tories would repeat the same cock-ups again. Their next manifesto will be one long love letter to the elderly and a spoonful of sugary tax cuts all round (even if they never implement these).

Another election so soon most likely means a Tory majority, with the second outcome being another hung parliament. Labour needs to take the long-term view, let the Tories hang themselves with this shambles term in office, wobbly leader, in fighting, Brexit will be an utter mess and lead at least in the short term to financial stagnation (at best)/utter downturn at worst.

Labour can watch from the sidelines - not our mess. Get proper people back on board and in the critical positions (no Diane Abbott home secretary ffs), and take power in 2021/2.


I think your badly misjudging where the Labour party goes from this point, which is a reflection of the old media viewpoint.

Labour are up to 45% and growing, gaining a higher voice through all forms of media.

Just on a couple of topics.
Scotland.
Scotland will flock back to Labour because they can now see a probable change in the UK government, and they like Corbyn, he speaks their language.
What you had in Scotland was the SNP beaten by timing.
They had mapped out a strategy based on the outcome of the Brexit negotiations. Tories trumped them on that.
Corbyn can replace Dugdale in Scotland who was actively asking voters to vote Conservative to avoid a second referendum.
Ruth Davidson is weak, gets flustered under pressure and wont be a threat to a resurgent Labour.

Back to England, the Blairites who hold the purse strings badly underfunded all the marginals on purpose hoping to be rid of Corbyn post election.
They wanted their little darling Yvonne Cooper installed.

Corbyns new strength will see Cooper join his ranks and major funding given to these marginals.

The other factor is there are people within the UK who just like to side with the winner, and thats Corbyn in more and more minds.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:02 am 
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Good Lord. Theresa May's "reshuffle" of her cabinet has been designed to "reach out" to her MPs. I don't know who is advising her now, perhaps it's the Downing Street cat. I would have thought she should be reaching out to the electorate first and foremost; the ones she patently ignored in her clueless manifesto and subsequent presidential-style campaign.

Just do what Corbyn did - promise everybody the earth. Trouble is though she is in government and is being held to account. Old Jezza ain't gotta deliver shag all. Easy when you ain't responsible ain't it. Bring back the racist old bindt Abbott to even things up again. :lol:

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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:05 am 
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knocker knowles wrote:
shropswolf wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
So when we go to the polls once again the question asked of you will be.

Do you want a strong and stable leader like Jeremy Corbyn.

OR.

A coalition of chaos featuring the Tories and DUP.

That's the message which sweeps Jeremy into Downing Street.


But faced with the now realistic prospect of Corbyn as PM, the Tories who abandoned May will flock back: the Tories are only 9 seats short of a majority, Labour a whopping 64.

Of course, May will not be allowed to lead another election in any case.

Jezza profited from being up against the worst campaign from any incumbent in living history. And even with that, he is 64 seats short of the target.

There is no way the Tories would repeat the same cock-ups again. Their next manifesto will be one long love letter to the elderly and a spoonful of sugary tax cuts all round (even if they never implement these).

Another election so soon most likely means a Tory majority, with the second outcome being another hung parliament. Labour needs to take the long-term view, let the Tories hang themselves with this shambles term in office, wobbly leader, in fighting, Brexit will be an utter mess and lead at least in the short term to financial stagnation (at best)/utter downturn at worst.

Labour can watch from the sidelines - not our mess. Get proper people back on board and in the critical positions (no Diane Abbott home secretary ffs), and take power in 2021/2.


I think your badly misjudging where the Labour party goes from this point, which is a reflection of the old media viewpoint.



Nothing to do with old/new media. It's an acknowledgement that Britain is inherently a conservative country, and has a hefty population of over 50s.

This time, thinking themselves infallible, the Tory manifesto opted to dump on its core voters because, well, they always vote Tory anyway.

Next time it will be totally different. Theresa May will never lead another election campaign, there will be no more robotic strong and stable guff, whoever it is that leads the campaign.

Their manifesto will follow Corbyn's model of promising the earth to make sure they kill him off once and for all (no opposition leader has failed to take power in two consequent elections and still remained).

Also Labour will come under far greater scrutiny - not meaning more lazy personal attacks on Corbyn - but a greater examination of their sums, which frankly rely on wildly optimistic tax revenue increases.

That is why Labour are better placed playing a longer game and letting the Tories totally hang themselves, but that needs several more years of thrashing around with the issues facing them, rather than entering into another election in 6 months. In 6 months, the goalposts will not have changed significantly enough for Corbyn to take 64 more seats - this is the phony Brexit phase still.

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Last edited by shropswolf on Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:48 am 
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A sound post. The personal attacks on Corbyn will/should never end. Put yourself forward for the pedestal and that's what you get in a democracy. With him even more important to peel back the shell as what lirs beneath is not pleasant.

We as a country are stuck with May for longer than some may think. Even her biggest detractors know they need time to go forward with Brexit and expose the popularist Labour policies for what they are. Another PM would signal and perhaps quite rightly calls for anothet election sooner rather than later. As understandable as those calls may be, it would be a disaster for this country at rhis moment in tine.

The last election had it's victories for May no matter what the left will tell you. Scottish referendums ? Buried. Victory over Corbyn by an incompetent PM standing on unpopular policies achieved. Wait a while, slowly replace May with a popular and decisive figurehead, expose the Marxist math and then see what happens. Jeez she is an arrogant cold wonan and she STILL WON..

By the way. The DUP were called and still are in many circles by their founding name The Conservative Democratic Unionists. ....... They were formed on high church values epitomised by the Rev Ian Paisley. Laterly a partner in peace, who actially worked with PIRA to achieve it. The leader of the Lib Dems claims similar Christian values. His criticism of the DUPs stance on gay rights is hypocritical in the extreme; but still not quite as bad as JC who would be chased out of any meeting chaired by Ulstermen who have long memories.

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Last edited by suiging on Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:47 am 
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This time, thinking themselves infallible, the Tory manifesto opted to dump on its core voters because, well, they always vote for us anyway.

Next time it will be totally different. Theresa May will never lead another election campaign, there will be no more robotic strong and stable guff, whoever it is.

Their manifesto will follow Corbyn's model of promising the earth to make sure they kill him off once (no opposition leader has failed to take power in 2 consequent elections and still remained).

Also Labour will come under far greater scrutiny - not meaning more lazy personal attacks on Corbyn - but a greater examination of their sums, which frankly really on wildly optimistic tax revenue increases.

That is why Labour are better placed playing a longer game and letting the Tories totally hang themselves, but that needs several more years of thrashing around with the issues facing them, than holding an election in 6 months. In 6 months, the goalposts will not changed significantly enough for Corbyn to take 64 more seats - this is the phony Brexit phase still.[/quote]

Rely....? Proofread and corrected for you...... :lol:

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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:48 am 
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According to @LordAshcroft poll 35-44s voted LAB 50%-CON 30%. That’s not kids, thats mortgages, car owning, kids at school, mid-career.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:22 pm 
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Picking through the bones of the Election, I noted these points :

Corbyn and his policy promises got through to the young and middle aged.

The UKIP vote, redundant since Brexit , went mostly to Labour and not the Tories, as had been anticipated.

The Tories had no manifesto or plan, they just expected to turn up and win with just nasty paper headlines denigrating Corbyn, the voters saw through that.

The Young, disenfranchised by the shock of the Brexit vote, realised that only by turning up and voting, can you help to change things for you and your generation. Record numbers of young people voted in this election, very noteworthy.

SNP, have become fatally wounded and there will not be a second Scottish Referendum.

Social Media had a tremendous influence in this election, more than ever before, it is not to be underestimated.

The collapse of the UKIP vote led to both the Tories and Labour getting a bigger share of the votes..May got more than Thatcher's last go and Corbyn got more than Blair's last election..

Overall a very interesting and surprising Election..things seem to have changed forever after this one. We will see what happens in the next few months and hope that the country does not overly suffer but I have my doubts.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:41 pm 
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gladbachwolf wrote:
Picking through the bones of the Election, I noted these points :

Corbyn and his policy promises got through to the young and middle aged.

The UKIP vote, redundant since Brexit , went mostly to Labour and not the Tories, as had been anticipated.

The Tories had no manifesto or plan, they just expected to turn up and win with just nasty paper headlines denigrating Corbyn, the voters saw through that.

The Young, disenfranchised by the shock of the Brexit vote, realised that only by turning up and voting, can you help to change things for you and your generation. Record numbers of young people voted in this election, very noteworthy.

SNP, have become fatally wounded and there will not be a second Scottish Referendum.

Social Media had a tremendous influence in this election, more than ever before, it is not to be underestimated.

The collapse of the UKIP vote led to both the Tories and Labour getting a bigger share of the votes..May got more than Thatcher's last go and Corbyn got more than Blair's last election..

Overall a very interesting and surprising Election..things seem to have changed forever after this one. We will see what happens in the next few months and hope that the country does not overly suffer but I have my doubts.



After such an awful Conservative manifesto and failed campaign I am pleasantly surprised Labour didn't romp home with enough seats to form a government. I can't imagine them being allowed to get as close again. People are fed up with austerity (a result of the country being left bankrupt by the Labour shower in 2010) and the Conservatives have got to reach out and offer all walks of life some hope. If they don't they won't survive.They will never get away with clobbering the old or not offering the young a positive future. It is not enough for a wooden prime minister to say "trust me" and offer no details as to why people should. Put some meat on the bones and put it out there for people to see.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:28 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
According to @LordAshcroft poll 35-44s voted LAB 50%-CON 30%. That’s not kids, thats mortgages, car owning, kids at school, mid-career.


All Ashcroft's polls are purely politically motivated and hence usually way off the reality.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:42 pm 
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shropswolf wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
According to @LordAshcroft poll 35-44s voted LAB 50%-CON 30%. That’s not kids, thats mortgages, car owning, kids at school, mid-career.


All Ashcroft's polls are purely politically motivated and hence usually way off the reality.



That same age group would be very concerned at the possibility of losing those houses they are currently paying for as a result of the "dementia tax" when they grow older. They would also have been unhappy with the prospect of losing the triple lock on the pensions they are saving for. The Tories surely will not make the same mistakes next time round.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:56 pm 
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Owd Theresa has apparently played a blinder at the 1922 Committee meeting. The air seems out of any immediate leadership challenge.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:18 pm 
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Left back wrote:
shropswolf wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
According to @LordAshcroft poll 35-44s voted LAB 50%-CON 30%. That’s not kids, thats mortgages, car owning, kids at school, mid-career.


All Ashcroft's polls are purely politically motivated and hence usually way off the reality.



That same age group would be very concerned at the possibility of losing those houses they are currently paying for as a result of the "dementia tax" when they grow older. They would also have been unhappy with the prospect of losing the triple lock on the pensions they are saving for. The Tories surely will not make the same mistakes next time round.


Spot on. Also, today's 20-year-olds are likely to have to wait until they are 75 until they can retire or pick up a state pension. Under Labour's fiscal policy they would probably have no jobs but, if they did have, would never be able to afford to retire.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:46 pm 
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Just looking at the Tory cabinet reshuffle and thinking who could then possibly step up to a short list of possible leader.
Damian Green and David Lidington seem capable and creditable options, while I'm also surprised Dominic Raab hasn't been given higher opportunities.

One I know very little about Gavin Williamson, whats the inside track on him?

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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:00 pm 
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knocker knowles wrote:
Just looking at the Tory cabinet reshuffle and thinking who could then possibly step up to a short list of possible leader.
Damian Green and David Lidington seem capable and creditable options, while I'm also surprised Dominic Raab hasn't been given higher opportunities.

One I know very little about Gavin Williamson, whats the inside track on him?


Why no Dominic Raab, hmm

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-12296269

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 Post Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:33 am 
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What surprised me during the previous decade when Blair was in power is that he didn't oversee a change.balance to the political presenter.

The Tories have a monopoly within the BBC as an example with Laura Kuenssberg, Nick Robinson and Andrew Marr hardly bovering to cover up their bias.
While Jo Coburn, well what can you say.

If they wish to stay relevant especially with the younger voter do they need to strike a balance?

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 Post Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:12 am 
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Britain: The End of a Fantasy

To understand the sensational outcome of the British election, one must ask a basic question. What happens when phony populism collides with the real thing?

Last year’s triumph for Brexit has often been paired with the rise of Donald Trump as evidence of a populist surge. But most of those joining in with the ecstasies of English nationalist self-assertion were imposters. Brexit is an elite project dressed up in rough attire. When its Oxbridge-educated champions coined the appealing slogan “Take back control,” they cleverly neglected to add that they really meant control by and for the elite. The problem is that, as the elections showed, too many voters thought the control should belong to themselves.

Theresa May is a classic phony Brexiter. She didn’t support it in last year’s referendum and there is no reason to think that, in private, she has ever changed her mind. But she saw that the path to power led toward the cliff edge, from which Britain will take its leap into an unknown future entirely outside the European Union. Her strategy was one of appeasement—of the nationalist zealots in her own party, of the voters who had backed the hard-right UK Independence Party (UKIP), and of the hysterically jingoistic Tory press, especially The Daily Mail.

The actual result of the referendum last year was narrow and ambiguous. Fifty-two percent of voters backed Brexit but we know that many of them did so because they were reassured by Boris Johnson’s promise that, when it came to Europe, Britain could “have its cake and eat it.” It could both leave the EU and continue to enjoy all the benefits of membership. Britons could still trade freely with the EU and would be free to live, work, and study in any EU country just as before. This is, of course, a childish fantasy, and it is unlikely that Johnson himself really believed a word of it. It was just part of the game, a smart line that might win a debate at the Oxford Union.

But what do you do when your crowd-pleasing applause lines have to become public policy? The twenty-seven remaining member states of the EU have to try to extract a rational outcome from an essentially irrational process. They have to ask the simple question: What do you Brits actually want? And the answer is that the Brits want what they can’t possibly have. They want everything to change and everything to go as before. They want an end to immigration—except for all the immigrants they need to run their economy and health service. They want it to be 1900, when Britain was a superpower and didn’t have to make messy compromises with foreigners.

To take power, May had to pretend that she, too, dreams these impossible dreams. And that led her to embrace a phony populism in which the narrow and ambiguous majority who voted for Brexit under false pretences are be reimagined as “the people.”

This is not conservatism—it is pure Rousseau. The popular will had been established on that sacred referendum day. And it must not be defied or questioned. Hence, Theresa May’s allies in The Daily Mail using the language of the French revolutionary terror, characterizing recalcitrant judges and parliamentarians as “enemies of the people” and “saboteurs.”

This is why May called an election. Her decision to do so—when she had a working majority in parliament—has been seen by some as pure vanity. But it was the inevitable result of the volkish rhetoric she had adopted. A working majority was not enough—the unified people must have a unified parliament and a single, uncontested leader: one people, one parliament, one Queen Theresa to stand on the cliffs of Dover and shake her spear of sovereignty at the damn continentals.

And the funny thing is that this seemed possible. As recently as late April, with the Labour Party in disarray and its leftist leader Jeremy Corbyn deemed unelectable, the polls were putting the Tories twenty points ahead and telling May that her coronation was inevitable. All she had to do was repeat the words “strong and stable” over and over and Labour would be crushed forever. The opposition would be reduced to a token smattering of old socialist cranks and self-evidently traitorous Scots. Britain would become in effect a one-party Tory state. An overawed Europe would bow before this display of British staunchness and concede a Brexit deal in which supplies of cake would be infinitely renewed.


There were three problems. Firstly, May demanded her enormous majority so that she could ride out into the Brexit battle without having to worry about mutterings in the ranks behind her. But she has no clue what the battle is supposed to be for. Because May doesn’t actually believe in Brexit, she’s improvising a way forward very roughly sketched out by other people. She’s a terrible actor mouthing a script in which there is no plot and no credible ending that is not an anti-climax. Brexit is a back-of-the-envelope proposition. Strip away the post-imperial make-believe and the Little England nostalgia, and there’s almost nothing there, no clear sense of how a middling European country with little native industry can hope to thrive by cutting itself off from its biggest trading partner and most important political alliance.

May demanded a mandate to negotiate—but negotiate what exactly? She literally could not say. All she could articulate were two slogans: “Brexit means Brexit” and “No deal is better than a bad deal.” The first collapses ideology into tautology. The second is a patent absurdity: with “no deal” there is no trade, the planes won’t fly and all the supply chains snap. To win an election, you need a convincing narrative but May herself doesn’t know what the Brexit story is.

Secondly, if you’re going to try the uno duce, una voce trick, you need a charismatic leader with a strong voice. The Tories tried to build a personality cult around a woman who doesn’t have much of a personality. May is a common or garden Home Counties conservative politician. Her stock in trade is prudence, caution, and stubbornness. The vicar’s daughter was woefully miscast as the Robespierre of the Brexit revolution, the embodiment of the British popular will sending saboteurs to the guillotine. She is awkward, wooden, and, as it turned out, prone to panic and indecision under pressure.

But to be fair to May, her wavering embodied a much deeper set of contradictions. Those words she repeated so robotically, “strong and stable,” would ring just as hollow in the mouth of any other Conservative politician. This is a party that has plunged its country into an existential crisis because it was too weak to stand up to a minority of nationalist zealots and tabloid press barons. It is as strong as a jellyfish and as stable as a flea.

Thirdly, the idea of a single British people united by the Brexit vote is ludicrous. Not only do Scotland, Northern Ireland, and London have large anti-Brexit majorities, but many of those who did vote for Brexit are deeply unhappy about the effects of the Conservative government’s austerity policies on healthcare, education, and other public services. (One of these services is policing, and May’s direct responsibility for a reduction in police numbers neutralized any potential swing toward the Conservatives as a result of the terrorist attacks in Manchester and London.)

This unrest found a voice in Corbyn’s unabashedly left-wing Labour manifesto, with its clear promises to end austerity and fund better public services by taxing corporations and the very wealthy. May’s appeal to “the people” as a mystic entity came up against Corbyn’s appeal to real people in their daily lives, longing not for a date with national destiny but for a good school, a functioning National Health Service, and decent public transport. Phony populism came up against a more genuine brand of anti-establishment radicalism that convinced the young and the marginalized that they had something to come out and vote for.

In electoral terms, of course, the two forces have pretty much canceled each other out. May will form a government with the support of the Protestant fundamentalist Democratic Unionist Party from Northern Ireland. That government will be weak and unstable and it will have no real authority to negotiate a potentially momentous agreement with the European Union. Brexit is thus far from being a done deal: it can’t be done without a reliable partner for the EU to negotiate with. There isn’t one now and there may not be one for quite some time—at least until after another election, but quite probably not even then. The reliance on a spurious notion of the “popular will” has left Britain with no clear notion of who “the people” are and what they really want.


http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/06/10 ... a-fantasy/

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 Post Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:59 am 
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A very interesting piece that. Food for thought.

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 Post Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:40 pm 
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gladbachwolf wrote:
A very interesting piece that. Food for thought.



Well written

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 Post Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:22 pm 
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shropswolf wrote:
knocker knowles wrote:
Just looking at the Tory cabinet reshuffle and thinking who could then possibly step up to a short list of possible leader.
Damian Green and David Lidington seem capable and creditable options, while I'm also surprised Dominic Raab hasn't been given higher opportunities.

One I know very little about Gavin Williamson, whats the inside track on him?


Why no Dominic Raab, hmm

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-12296269


Gavin Williamson = Strong & Stable.

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 Post Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:43 pm 
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suiging wrote:
gladbachwolf wrote:
A very interesting piece that. Food for thought.



Well written


OH SHIT

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 Post Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:04 pm 
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Conservative Unionist Negotiating Team/s.

Rather unfortunate......spotty frog/S.

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 Post Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:32 pm 
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suiging wrote:
Conservative Unionist Negotiating Team/s.

Rather unfortunate......spotty frog/S.


Yeah. It was Shrops I think who spotted that a few days ago.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:53 pm 
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shropswolf wrote:

What concerns me is why so many couldn't see this scenario about Brexit before the referendum. It was blatantly obvious, so those who are now moaning who voted for it have only themselves to blame.

As I said many times before the vote, Brexit was like jumping out of a plane without a parachute. I've had my ear burned a fair few Brexiteers both before and after the referendum but they've shut their gobs of late as they've come to understand the reality of the current situation.

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